Just had a terrible shouty argument with a relative

[failingatlife]

Oh God just need to rant. I've just had a terrible stand up argument with my DB in front of my 3 kids, his DC, his wife and my mum. We quite often talk about politics, brexit, Scottish indy, trump etc. As feminists my DM and I are obviously all over the whole gender issue so this also comes up.

Today, it was VAWG and it got very heated. To cut a long story short my DB is sick of feeling guilty about male violence. He has never been violent or raped /sexually assaulted anyone and us bringing it is making him feel bad. NAMALT. Apparently women do bad things too. Myra Hindley was mentioned . We were both shouting and DB got extremely angry and red faced.

I'm embarrassed about losing it in front of my family but bloody hell his pathetic arguments about it being 'a human problem not a male one' made me mad! He also said to DD, not in front of me,' I hope you dont end up a misandrist like your mum'

DD pointed out afterwards that he had just shown how male anger is a problem. She said she thought he might hit me he got so angry so fast. (I never felt physically threatened BTW the last time he hit me was about age 10). It was a good lesson for DD about male attitudes. She thinks he was a bully shouting down women (dm & I) with stupid non arguments who expected to be listened to just because he's a man.

So we shouldn't bring up MVAWG cos it upsets the menz? How exactly are we supposed to tackle something we can't talk about?

he showed very clearly what problem is. namalt my arse.
good on your dd to see it so clearly.

Gosh your DD has it all sorted though? I would feel very proud of her for seeing it so clearly.

I am sorry your brother is such a wanker.

I have woken up very late to how society colludes in hiding male violence and it has come to a terrible shock to me really. My DH and I often discuss it, strangely it doesn't make him upset to name the problem for what it is.

My dad is just like this. His sisters don't really talk to him anymore but he fails to see the connection.

In youre words you both lost it?? Does this not make you both as bad???

Wynston I did say I was embarrassed! It wasn't my finest moment. But he totally lost it his face was purple! But neither of us behaved well.

Proud of DD too. She saw him for what he was. A man blaming women for men's actions.

What was his wife's attitude?

I understand why you're feeling bad about the argument, although of course you have every right to your beliefs (which I share 100%) and to stand up for them.

I had a blazing row not long ago with my brother, about politics and Brexit, whilst our family was dining out in a restaurant (a rare occurrence for all of us together). I felt so awful and embarrassed afterwards and could not understand how I had let myself get so riled up and out of control.

Your brother is mistaken in his attitude to VAWG. Yes, not all men behave that way but a horrifically high proportion of women are victims and survivors, and all women are afraid it might happen to them. Structural, systemic misogyny exists and male violence is a symptom of it, ergo there is a problem, even if your brother is not personally causing it.

By denying that to be the case he becomes part of the problem. His defensiveness makes the issue all about his hurt feelings rather than the thousands of injured and murdered women and children victimised and traumatised by male violence. On a wider scale, denial like his allows systemic misogyny and male aggression to flourish unchallenged, and is one of the methods the power structure of the patriarchy uses to maintain it's dominance.

Funny how you discuss something he's not guilty of and yet he manages to take it personally. It's always all about the menz! The whataboutery of women do bad things too is exasperating, cos yeah we know. It's a conversation I'm prepared to have when women are guilty of 50% of violent crime.

Not sure how old your daughter is but good for her for standing up for women.

What was his wife's attitude She never said a word. I left so I don't know if she said anything afterwards. She seems to have little Interest in current affairs/politics etc and rarely gets involved in any discussions about politics etc

So in order to make the point that "NAMALT" he aggressively turned on his niece.

Hmm. He's lost that argument, no?

It's not about him, and yet he's managed to make the systematic rape, abuse and oppression of women and girls be about how he feels.

No, NAMALT but he's sure as shite not an ally and he dislikes being told so I'd guess.

Which makes him just another man trying to silence women because he doesn't like their opinion.

I'd have lost my shit completely if he'd taken his anger with me out on my DD.

Wait I just reread, your DD worried he'd hit her?

Fuck me what a prince.

By denying that to be the case he becomes part of the problem. His defensiveness makes the issue all about his hurt feelings rather than the thousands of injured and murdered women and children victimised and traumatised by male violence. On a wider scale, denial like his allows systemic misogyny and male aggression to flourish unchallenged, and is one of the methods the power structure of the patriarchy uses to maintain it's dominance.

This a thousand times.

I’m on the fence a bit... I can see you point & your DD’s but if this is every Sunday Dinner together I can also see why your DB is a bit fed up of hearing about it and being made to feel responsible for all other men tbh.

How on earth are we ever going to have a conversation about male violence when males react like this? It's a common reaction, he's far from alone. My DH and dad have both said similar just not in a sbouting angry way. My DH likes to point out that he has never laid a finger on me when I mention male violence. What the fuck? Am I supposed to feel grateful not to be a battered wife? Surely it is a basic of human behaviour not to abuse or assault anyone neve mind your partner? I've told him this several times, he still does it!

NAMALT and mens refusal to accept that a significant minority of them are violent/ sexual abusers etc means things can never change.

I’m on the fence a bit... I can see you point & your DD’s but if this is every Sunday Dinner together I can also see why your DB is a bit fed up of hearing about it and being made to feel responsible for all other men tbh.

Its not every Sunday dinner. Lately its been Brexit and the Tory leadership that have been regular topics. Also isn't that one of the rules of misogyny? It's my fault for maki g him feel bad or somethng... Wa ders off to check...

So you and he both lost it and were both shouting but apparently it's proof of male violence and if men talking over women?

How is it not evidence of women doing the same (ie you)? And in front of all of your children too?

No DD thought he might hit ME but I did not feel physically threatened, just shouted down. She has never witnessed such a shouting match before so was a bit shaken. Her opinion of her uncle has been negatively affected, thats for sure She's almost 14 BTW.

So you and he both lost it and were both shouting but apparently it's proof of male violence and if men talking over women?

Yes because OP clearly states her DD was scared OP would hit her.

Oh wait...

Nice minimising though eh?

He lost his shit because he wants to make the issue about him and his feelings.

OP lost her shit because he's a dick.

Only one physically intimidated OPs DD, indeed only one of them targeted her because they were angry with her Mum. That must have been OP too right?

Nope. Still him.

But aye, they're as bad as each other.

Women getting angry because of oppression of women and girls aren't aggressors.

Men screaming and shouting at women and girls because their ego can't cope with it not being all about them are.

HTH.

I don't think any of these discussions go well when you start holding an individual responsible for the actions of a group - be that Brexit, male privilege, white privilege, political persuasion...

If you are white for example, OP, do you regularly atone for the privilege that you enjoy? How would you react if week after week your family berated you for the privilege that you have and expect you to be responsible for it? I do find these discussions bizarre.

If you are white for example, OP, do you regularly atone for the privilege that you enjoy?

No, but I fucking well recognise my white privilege and listen when POC tell me how I can be an effective ally.

InTheHeatofLisbon

The OP clearly says they were both shouting and she lost it - whose fault is that and how did her getting angry and "losing it" affect the children who witnessed it?

Maybe they both need to learn not to discuss these topics as neither are able to control their tempers.

Thanks for clarifying OP, tbh I don't think that's much better but it's important the truth is told rather than my misinterpretation.

He'd lost the argument with you so took it out on your 13 yo DD with that nasty little comment. No wonder her opinion of him has been affected. I'd be disgusted.

Also isn't that one of the rules of misogyny? It's my fault for making him feel bad or somethng... Wa ders off to check...

So your zdad, your DH & your DB are all fed up of you going on about it. Does that not tell you something??

I’m
A vegetarian, but that doesn’t mean I’m
Responsible for the behaviour of all other vegetarians. Yes, I’ll call people out for shitty behaviour if they’re casting vegetarians in a bad light. I’m sure your dDsd, DH & DB Would call out men behaving badly but FGS WHAT is it you expect them to do /say time after time when you are going on about this?!

I’m not sure why you feel your DB’s behaviour is worse than your own tbh

Maybe they both need to learn not to discuss these topics as neither are able to control their tempers.

And there it is. Man can't handle conversation about facts, gets angry and it leads to a row. Which is clearly stated in the OP actually.

You do know that's a story as old as time don't you? Man shouts down woman, woman stays quiet to keep the peace.

No, but I fucking well recognise my white privilege and listen when POC tell me how I can be an effective ally.

And you would sit there regularly and listen to criticism about how privileged white people are and all the terrible things white people have done and how you are part of the problem because you are white and not ever defend yourself as an individual?