Just had a terrible shouty argument with a relative

[failingatlife]

Oh God just need to rant. I've just had a terrible stand up argument with my DB in front of my 3 kids, his DC, his wife and my mum. We quite often talk about politics, brexit, Scottish indy, trump etc. As feminists my DM and I are obviously all over the whole gender issue so this also comes up.

Today, it was VAWG and it got very heated. To cut a long story short my DB is sick of feeling guilty about male violence. He has never been violent or raped /sexually assaulted anyone and us bringing it is making him feel bad. NAMALT. Apparently women do bad things too. Myra Hindley was mentioned . We were both shouting and DB got extremely angry and red faced.

I'm embarrassed about losing it in front of my family but bloody hell his pathetic arguments about it being 'a human problem not a male one' made me mad! He also said to DD, not in front of me,' I hope you dont end up a misandrist like your mum'

DD pointed out afterwards that he had just shown how male anger is a problem. She said she thought he might hit me he got so angry so fast. (I never felt physically threatened BTW the last time he hit me was about age 10). It was a good lesson for DD about male attitudes. She thinks he was a bully shouting down women (dm & I) with stupid non arguments who expected to be listened to just because he's a man.

So we shouldn't bring up MVAWG cos it upsets the menz? How exactly are we supposed to tackle something we can't talk about?

Why the hell do men always come out with the old Myra Hindley did it too thing? Her last murder (if she did it even) was over 50 years ago FFS. How many men have killed how many women since 1965? It makes me want to weep.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly

your brother obviously believes strongly in the 10th rule of misogyny:

The worst thing about male violence is that it males men look bad

In fact it is so common if ought to be bumped from 10th to 1st!

try to not let the full time contrarians on this thread wind you up too much

YY.

thenightsky I said almost exactly that to my kids when we discussed it later. Also she did not do it alone, she was the accomplice to a man but we hear more about her than we do about Brady.

thenightsky

How many men have killed how many women since 1965? It makes me want to weep.

Those with weak arguments can’t resist whatabouttery.

An average of 137 women across the world are killed by a partner or family member every day, according to new data released by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime www.bbc.com/news/world-46292919

Read “family members” as mostly being men: fathers, brothers - “honour” killings and the like.

Two women are killed each week by a current or former partner in England and Wales
Office for National Statistics (2016) Compendium – Homicide (average taken over 10 years)

Two women a week? In only one small part of the world? But what about what happened that time 50 years ago?

decompose I said in my op we often talk about politics not that we argue about it. We have recently discussed brexit which we mainly agree on, Scottish indy which as a family we dont and has become heated but not shouting and the disaster that is the tory leadership choice.

Not sure where you got the idea that we are regularly screaming and shouting at each other.

Nevermind them, failingatlife as that poster does not even grasp you weren’t talking about it with your DB: he butted himself in to a conversation he was not a part of.

Now everyone be quiet, a man is speaking! Walk away and let him have the floor he was never invited onto in the first place! It is much better to stay silent and let him have his opinion go uncontested than risk yourself becoming “shouty”. It’s so unbecoming of a lady after all!

When men are being attacked, raped, murdered, trafficked, abused, beaten and mistreated at the same level as women and girls, then we can speak as equals.

Until they do something about the societal expendability of women and girls, and combat the violence experienced daily, nothing will make us equal.

Just to add, glad I grew up in a family with a mother who definitely did not feel that we should not discuss politics because it “might become argumentative”, and certainly not in a family where the default was the males should be given the last word because well, they are male.

Often when people lose their temper, especially if it's not usual for them, it is related to something quite different from what is immediately going on, they are tired, or ill, or stressed out. Or it can relate to some personal that connects them to whatever the topic is, possibly that they would rather not talk about.

But apart from that kind of thing, I do think people are entitled to think about topics like this in a different way without being considered reprobates. It seems that is less and less possible though and it pisses people off. Someone mentioned up thread listening to a POC about how to be an ally - that's a good example in a way, my response would be, you know what, it's ok to disagree with someone even when they are supposed to be higher than you on the relevant oppression hierarchy.

I used to feel badly about doing that, even when I thought they were saying something clearly wrong or misguided, and so I just kept quiet. And as it's become more and more difficult to say something that is supposedly wrong, I found myself feeling more and more ticked off anytime it happened. Eventually I decided that maybe I'd better just say what I thought and let people think what they want though I'm not always brave enough to do it.

It's too bad OP that your brother lost his temper, but perhaps its a subject he's not really been allowed to talk about much and so it all came out with family as sometimes happens. FWIW, while men are responsible for a lot more violence than women, I think women are just as likely to be bad people.

It's interesting how often I hear of cases where, when women are generally discussing male violence against women and girls, men get all upset as if they are blaming them personally - which they never are - and engage in whataboutery like mentioning female killers as if that is somehow nullifies all the vastly greater male violence or the need to discuss it in order to address it.

A while ago I became friends with a black couple who were very politically active in the fight against racism. They would often talk to me about it, and how white people didn't see racism. I never once thought they were making it all about me, or blaming me. I think that's a really weird reaction, the reaction of a narcissist. I was shocked, appalled and it changed my thinking, and perhaps even my behaviour, but I never took it personally. Why would I?

well done to your dd

Ineedacupofteadesperately

Surely it would depend on how they presented their argument? If they were saying "on the whole white people don't understand" that's very different to saying "you don't understand" or "as a class, white people are responsible for" is very different to "you, as a white person, are responsible for"

It depends how you say these things as to whether people feel personally attacked or not.

I've seen it said lots of times on here how individual men need to step up and call out behaviour by other men, whether that be at work or when out and about, but that ignores how vulnerable lots of men are, as individuals. Most men aren't in positions of seniority at work for example and might be desperately in need of keeping their job and too afraid to rock the boat. How is it reasonable to insist that that individual benefits from male privilege and so is therefore compelled to speak out at work and potentially lose his job? In instances like these I can understand why individual men feel attacked - because they are being held in some way for policing the behaviour of men that they have no control over.

God I know people who use the 'it's a human problem not a male one'. It's fucking infuriating.

Just to add, glad I grew up in a family with a mother who definitely did not feel that we should not discuss politics because it “might become argumentative”, and certainly not in a family where the default was the males should be given the last word because well, they are male.

I am too. I want our DC to grow up in the same way, and we're working hard to make that happen.

God I know people who use the 'it's a human problem not a male one'. It's fucking infuriating.

Usually the same people who then want women to do the work to fix the “human problem” (ie see Laverne Cox).

What InTheHeatOfLisbon said.

I'm hearing a lot of men talk similar rubbish to your DB lately. NAMALT has always been there of course, but they seem to be gettign really aggressive about it now - as your DD so astutely observed, rather proving the point. They seem to think pointing out the sex imbalance in perpetrators of violence is sexist, when it is a simple statement of fact. They can FOTTFSOF. They are proving the point that men can't be trusted.

decimposing "DM & I were discussing particular incidents that happened near us last week. My brother was not involved in any of the incidents but chose to take offence to us talking about these incidentd. We were not holding him personally responsible or accusing him of the behaviour we were discussing. I have no reason to believe he is a sex offender or abuser so why would he think we were holding him responsible?

It's just an argument men use to shut down women.

Giving them him the benefit of the doubt maybe men get annoyed about women discuss MVAWG because as individuals they feel helpless to do anything about it?

So they word rather pretend it's not happening or its nowhere near as bad as we say it is or women do it too. But that does not help females in any way. My brother has a wife, daughter & granddaughters. I'm sure he would be gutted if any of them were assaulted in any way. But he would rather deny it cos it hurts his feelings.

I'm not loving your work here, I'm sorry. And my brother sexually assaulted me for years so believe me it's I'm not not on your side. I am.

I just think the healthy message for your children is to walk away from this.

If he's the misogynist you say he is then stop talking, start walking.

failingatlife

I don't know why your DB reacted in the way that he did. I wasn't there, didn't hear the conversation not the previous conversations.

It's quite interesting how your account of what happened appears to be changing as the thread goes on, moving it more towards he was more to blame than you and that you had less of a role in it than your OP suggests. It's also interesting that both your dad and your DH are also not responding in a way that you are ok with.

I'm trying to think how I would feel in their shoes - if someone kept talking about say women in the same way you are talking about men. Honestly, I think I would be getting defensive too. You say yourself that your brother isn't a sex offender or an abuser so what did you want him to say or do? How did you expect him to respond? What were you saying when he joined in the conversation and what did he say in response?

It seems very odd that if you were simply discussing an attack that had happened that he would become defensive or jump into the conversation in an angry manner.

We frequently talk about crimes that have been committed locally and none of us feel like we have to get defensive or feel attacked by it so I wonder what was being said to make him respond in the way that he did?

You say that he said that he's sick of feeling guilty about male violence - so who is causing him to feel like that? Where is that coming from?

Maybe he's so upset because he does feel powerless? Maybe he's scared that someone he loves will be attacked and that he's powerless to do anything about it, because ultimately he is isn't he? Realistically what he can be do about it, because he's a man?

Yes he can raise his sons to be good men or challenge his friends if they say things but he's not going to be able to anything about sex offenders is he?

And for the poster who derided it being a human problem - I think it is a human problem. Of course men are responsible and should do their part but so should women too. As mums of boys we have a part to play in how we raise boys and the type of men that they become. So yes, it is a human problem.

Decomposing
You say that he said that he's sick of feeling guilty about male violence - so who is causing him to feel like that? Where is that coming from?
nobody is causing him to feel like that
His feelings are his own and are not caused by anyone apart from himself. Nobody can make another person feel anything.
Nice bit of transference there. NOT

I had a long reply but my page crashed.

All I hear is a lot of “but what about the poor men, won’t someone think of the man, and won’t you woman just take responsibility for men’s feelings, reactions, and their anger?”

If you have never encountered a man who feels he needs to butt himself into a conversation he is not a part of you have been very blessed indeed. If you have never heard men talk about women in derogatory ways you are also very blessed.

OP is not responsible for her brother. If he feels powerless maybe he should talk to a counselor or ask “what can I do” to teach the men in my life not to see women as objects and targets instead of becoming angry at his sister who is a target of men. If he feels a talk about sexual offenders was about him in any way then maybe he needs to do some deep self reflection as to why he felt so defensive.

And if you have some insight on why you think women - the victims of men - are the ones who should be teaching their abusers to not abuse them and why you think those men would listen, I would love to hear it. Men should not just “do their part”, like if they chip in it’s all good, men should fucking take responsibility and stop the male violence, the male abuse, and so on. Good, raise your boys not to be misogynist assholes, but that does not mean men aren’t wholly responsible for their violence and abuse.

Absolutepowercorrupts

YY.

Honestly if someone feels “guilty” about hearing about sexual male violence then I think it hit a nerve worth that person exploring in therapy because I don’t believe it is just a “I am not like that!”.

My husband doesn’t get defensive if we talk about male violence because he acknowledges men are violent. Even if he himself is not, he realizes he has the capacity to be physically intimidating and to cause harm because of his physical stature and so forth. He does not take it personally as he knows it is not personal, and he knows he is not like that.

Bringing up Myra Hindley as a reaction to people talking about male violence, is pretty much the 'bringing up Hitler in a regular argument' thing IMO.

Its always astounding to me, the amount of men who are Not Like That, who take offense to women talking about the men who Are Like That.

It started off as a conversation between my mum and I which he joined in to tell us how upsetting it is for him that women keep going on about their fear of men.

Oh its so upsetting to Men Who Are Not Like That that women keep gong on about their fear of men..really? Aw diddums. Maybe men should stop fucking sexually assaulting, beating, raping and killing us then. I know I know, NAMALT. And you are definitely not like that, despite taking offense when women talk about men who are like that and acting as if its a personal insult to you or something Yeah, women shut the fuck up about bad men, because it upsets good men to hear you talk about bad men and the things they have done to you or may do to you in the future.

Now everyone be quiet, a man is speaking! Walk away and let him have the floor he was never invited onto in the first place! It is much better to stay silent and let him have his opinion go uncontested than risk yourself becoming “shouty”. It’s so unbecoming of a lady after all!

^

What I’m getting from our resident anti-feminist derailer is, women have to talk about the constant violence against us in a careful, quiet way and retreat if we make any of the men feel bad. Well fuck off with that attitude.

We should be really angry about the violence against women and anyone, man or woman, who turns a blind eye, does absolutely nothing about it and tells us how we should ask for help. We’ll get as god damn angry about it as we like.

No the question really is, why isn’t this brother or any other brother, getting just as angry as us? If you’re not a violent wanker, then why aren’t you getting angry about those that are?

OP, I get your frustration. I just started a thread about one of the most powerful men in NZ saying domestic violence isn’t a ‘gender thing’, women do it too. Rightly called out by domestic violence orgs but the rest of my country is supporting him. That’s why we have such a problem with violence against women: tolerance & acceptance.