Just had a terrible shouty argument with a relative

[failingatlife]

Oh God just need to rant. I've just had a terrible stand up argument with my DB in front of my 3 kids, his DC, his wife and my mum. We quite often talk about politics, brexit, Scottish indy, trump etc. As feminists my DM and I are obviously all over the whole gender issue so this also comes up.

Today, it was VAWG and it got very heated. To cut a long story short my DB is sick of feeling guilty about male violence. He has never been violent or raped /sexually assaulted anyone and us bringing it is making him feel bad. NAMALT. Apparently women do bad things too. Myra Hindley was mentioned . We were both shouting and DB got extremely angry and red faced.

I'm embarrassed about losing it in front of my family but bloody hell his pathetic arguments about it being 'a human problem not a male one' made me mad! He also said to DD, not in front of me,' I hope you dont end up a misandrist like your mum'

DD pointed out afterwards that he had just shown how male anger is a problem. She said she thought he might hit me he got so angry so fast. (I never felt physically threatened BTW the last time he hit me was about age 10). It was a good lesson for DD about male attitudes. She thinks he was a bully shouting down women (dm & I) with stupid non arguments who expected to be listened to just because he's a man.

So we shouldn't bring up MVAWG cos it upsets the menz? How exactly are we supposed to tackle something we can't talk about?

I would, because the conversation wouldn't be about me would it?

How arrogant do you have to be in order to make systematic oppression be about appeasing your ego?

Spectacularly I say.

Decomposing
I'm certainly not proud of my part in it. I'm not sure I said it was proof of male violence? It started off as a conversation between my mum and I which he joined in to tell us how upsetting it is for him that women keep going on about their fear of men. He got very angry very quickly, I wasnt just going to sit there like a meek little lady and take it.

The children were all 13+ not toddlers, though it was not the best example to set them, I don't think they were traumatised.

And there it is. Man can't handle conversation about facts, gets angry and it leads to a row. Which is clearly stated in the OP actually.

Who started shouting first? How did the OP loose it? Regardless of what the brother did why didn't the OP end her part in it? Even if he was being an arse is a Sunday lunch with children present actually the place to be yelling and screaming and loosing it?

You can't control other people but you should sure as hell be able to control your own and if you can't then that's a problem. The DB didn't force the OP to shout and loose it in front of children. He couldn't have had an argument with himself could he?

DecomposingComposers read OPs last post. He did.

And it should be him who stopped it starting in the first place, because as I've said repeatedly, it's not about him. But his tiny little fragile ego couldn't compute that.

Obviously OP has said she's not proud of her part in it, but saying she should keep quiet and not start conversations about it, or completely ignoring the fact that he scared, intimidated and targeted (with the comment) his 13 yo niece is just more of the same shit.

Instead of walking on eggshells around fragile male egos, how about it becomes the norm not to make societal issues all about you as an individual, and not to take it out on the nearest child when you don't get your own way?

She has never witnessed such a shouting match before so was a bit shaken.

Or

The children were all 13+ not toddlers, though it was not the best example to set them, I don't think they were traumatised.

Because I don't think starting a row, on any topic, over the Sunday lunch is a great idea, especially when you know it will get heated and when their are children there.

That's not saying you can't discuss these things but discuss them at an appropriate time.

I'd quite like to know what was actually said as well. Big difference between discussing the issue of male violence say, and keeping it very general and bringing it down to the individual and making them feel as though they are responsible for how every man behaves.

DecomposingComposers you can't tell the difference between shaken and traumatised?

You're spoiling for a fight on a few threads, so I'm out. I'm not being someone else's source of bizarre entertainment, especially not when it's derailing and deflecting from an important topic.

Sorry OP.

My brother started shouting first. I raised my voice back. He got even louder and angrier. He said women do bad stuff too. Mentioned Myra Hyndley. I tried to argue about 90odd% of violent crime being committed by men but he was ranting by that point. I got up and went into the kitchen and left via back door. My kids left a couple of minutes later. The whole thing only lasted a few minutes. I don't t think I reacted well but I still think he was in the wrong.

A bit shaken is hardly the same as traumatised is it?

I didn't say anyone was traumatised, those were the OPs words.

I said I didn't think it was a great way to behaving, shouting and getting angry in front of children.

The OP clearly said her dd was shaken by it. I think that's a problem that OP was equally to blame for.

Myra Hindley is a ridiculous argument back actually. She did what she did because she wanted to please Brady. That's not to say I'm absolving her of responsibility, she was truly wicked.

But tell him next time to find a spree or serial killer who is female who did so purely to satisfy their own violent and sexual depravity. He'll be hard pushed.

Again, not absolving the women involved in such atrocities of their own responsibility, but it's a very, very rare situation that it isn't for or because of a man and his desires.

I don"t know. I can think of several family members who can have arguments with themselves pretty much. One of them goes on and on till someone takes the bait and the other two don't listen so it doesn't matter what the other person's replying.

Possibly a strict 'no politics in the kitchen' (or wherever) rule might be a way forward.

Personally, I have resolved never ever to discuss BREXIT with DH and a range of topics with DSis, DF and MIL.

I'm not interested in arguments with people who aren't interested in anyone else's views. What's the point?

In your DB's case, he was asking for it diving in someone else's conversation like that, though. That's just rude.

While we can’t know without being there, it does sound like he jumped into a conversation that wasn’t about him and made it about him.

It wasn't Sunday lunch btw. We just happened to visit my parents at the same time as them. We were in the living room and there were several chats going on. Kids were messing about on phones with Snapchat filters with SIL. The original convo was between my mum & I. We were discussing the recent local cases of flashing at and groping of young girls in public places. He then joined in to tell us it made him feel bad us talking about male violence. He has 'joked' in the past about women getting above their station and feminism having gone too far. I thought he was joking, not so sure now

While we can’t know without being there, it does sound like he jumped into a conversation that wasn’t about him and made it about him.

Yes that's it in a nutshell!

He then joined in to tell us it made him feel bad us talking about male violence

I don't know why there's confusion about this, OP, you've made that pretty clear over the thread.

Saying women and girls are scared of men is not saying all men are violent. His argument is ludicrous.

The only people who use the term misandrist are men’s rights activists.

I would avoid him.

I think to be honest the fault lies with the OPs brother here. The conversation was between the OP and her Mum, in essence he’s the one who should have wound his neck in and not made an argument of it at a family gathering.

If I was in his shoes and found either my sex/gender, sexual orientation or political views constantly belittled and it really made me feel that bad I’d just make other arrangements for Sunday Dinner.

Yes i agree phin and end

Sadly you will now be painted as the hysterical one and it will serve only to cement his thoughts that you/feminists are irrational and deranged.

For that reason it’s a bad outcome and I always try and keep that in mind during such conversations as calm and cool always makes a better point.

You won’t change him so don’t bother.

As an aside tho to posters who are defending him on the basis that it is horrible as man to be constantly told about male violence as if it’s their fault etc etc -

My SIL works in the arena of VAWG and the subject comes up very regularly at our family get togethers and both myself and my sister are interested and involved in smaller ways in campaigning.

The men in our family- dad, BIL, my DB, DH and DSs all listen and actively join in condemning it and discussing it with focus on how it can better be tackled.
They don’t feel guilty on a personal level as they know they aren’t violent but they do accept it as a class effect of men and can provide really useful insights into male behaviour and socialisation. I know for a fact DH accepts he may unwittingly leap into male privilege and that he doesn’t always realise or even allows it to pass.

Just as per the previous poster giving the analogy of white privilege and POC having a conversation I could completely own having a part in that even if I don’t knowingly behave in a racist manner. I would listen to their thoughts and take it away and work on myself, not get angry and do the ‘not all white people are racist’ speech.

To the pp who said maybe I should stop going on about it to my DH dad and brother. I have not discussed this with dad as my mum told me he got defensive when she mentioned it so she avoids it now. Dad wasn't there, he isn't very sociable (a bit of a grumpy d man tbh) he had gone upstairs to his man cave as he usually does.

News stories are generally the catalyst for discussion with my dh. Every time he brings it back to him. How he would never behave like that. Drives me mad!

As for my brother, he joined in a conversation in order to berate the participants. He chose to go on the defensive and make a general discussion about him personally.

Should women really not discuss these issues in case the males in our family feel offended? We have a DD almost 14 and 2 teen boys. Not discussing vioence and sex crimes is hardly going to help them is it?

DD is gaining independence, going out and about with friends, getting the bus etc. Should I not discuss the fact that two teenage girls were groped (separately but 1 perpetrator) in a busy shopping street at 3pm last Monday? This happened locally but even if it was miles away parents are concerned. Why should we shut up just to save the feelings of our male relatives?

Yawninfinitum

I think it really depends how those conversations are framed though.

I would feel entirely different about a conversation about white privilege that was discussing, in general terms, how white people have institutional and societal privilege but if someone was directing it at me personally, saying that I am in someway to blame or that I should be doing more to challenge white privilege then I think that I would see it as a personal attack and respond accordingly. So, I guess my view on this depends largely on how this discussion was phrased.

My wider point still stands - having an argument like this, on any topic, in front of children is not great and the OP would have done much better to end it before it escalated.

Any reasonable person who had black nieces and nephews would want to hear about their worries about white people, the police etc. It would be basic concern for young family members.

X pist