My daughter was assaulted tonight - why I'm against self ID

[JudgeFlounceRedRugBlah]

Been around since it was all fields etc. but name changed as this concerns my children.

So, one of my children is transgender. My child is wonderful, kind and strong. I've struggled with the transgender debate because of this. They have no obvious signs of wanting to pervert womanhood just to emulate it. Imho as transgenderism should be.

I've also got daughters and, as a women, am well aware of how vulnerable a girl or woman can be when singled out and this has been borne out today. My (underage) daughter was working at her first workplace taking orders at tables in a restaurant. The staff have known her since she was born. They care for and look out for her - thank goodness. Tonight a man followed her to the toilets, pinned her and told her "he knew he shouldn't but he couldn't help himself.." sadly too many women know how this goes.

Luckily another person in the restaurant noticed a man go into the womens toilet and that neither of them came out in a reasonable amount of time. Instead of being scared that the man was a woman and they'd be in trouble with the police for hate crimes they alerted staff who got to my daughter before much more than clammy mauling had happened.

I'm angry at the sleaze who did this to my CHILD. But more I'm scared that we are fast approaching a world where that person could have felt uncomfortable raising their concerns. Perhaps they'd have hesitated just a bit longer, a bit too long. Perhaps the staff would have had a training course about jelly babies.

As it is they did say something, staff did react and my daughter is shocked, a bit scared but mostly disgusted. I can't tell you how thankful I am that she lives in a world where people are, currently, free to say "erm... that doesn't seem right".

My transgender child is going through hell in so many ways, they are battling on a frontier - I can see that - but, much as I support them, I am not prepared to sell my daughters out for it.

I'm aware I may get some backlash from posting this so I apologise now if I have to ask hq to remove. I really just wanted to say thank you to those who are not against trans people but also recognise that not against doesn't mean they have to drink the kool aid. Those who are fighting so hard just to have a proper discussion about it all. Thank you

Thanks red and barracker

Great posts from both of you

Very clear to me. And helping me see stuff I didn’t know or understand

So,saying thanks

One of the biggest harms I've felt has been the removal of power to talk honestly about how things have affected me. That's why I refer to being held an emotional hostage.

Within a family this can be a particularly strong force, which suppresses the feelings and emotions of others who have to defer to the status of the 'most oppressed' or 'special statused one'.

The inability of time and space to be able to challenge this can be suffocating and crushing.

The affirmation only path and no debate are all about power and control.

Thus I think it crucial for there to be robust challenges which can be uncomfortable and awkward because without it feelings get bottled up and frustrations build even more. To the point where communication becomes completely impossible due to pure and total alienation.

Debate is crucial to preventing echo chambers. It is good and healthy to hear things we don't like and disagree with. It helps us think rather than just regurgitate and repeat.

I think the term abuse has almost lost all meaning in this debate because people get offended at reality being pointed out. Indeed given the amount of DARVO that is dished out its all the more important we do debate rather than just accept 'abuse' at face value without question.

Abuse is NOT merely challenging someone's opinions and views. It's frankly dangerous to suggest it is. That's totalitarianism and thought policing.

Barracker, sorry if you feel I'd withheld permission in some way, that certainly wasnt my intention and I hadn't interpreted the guidelines quite like that myself so wasnt aware others thought that. I did state further up the thread that I don't believe people should have to do things they are not comfortable with, specifically in reference to using names (and therefore pronouns in my head although I accept I didn't specify that).

Yeah red. I know a family whose youngest son decided he was a girl

The mum put up some sort of poster in family home to celebrate it
Youngest daughter pulled it down

She felt that he was now special just for deciding to be a woman
She never got a poster on wall just for being a girl
She was so pissed by that

Sorry redtoothbrush I don't understand DARVO (although I think I should, I'm probably missing something!) Could you clarify?

In terms of abuse I mean specifically being called a liar repeatedly by you when I have not lied at any point. Disagreed yes, stood my ground, said things you don't like but not lied. Your disagreement does not make me a liar.
I dislike your combative tone however I accept this is a difficult subject and I have risen to being a bit angry on this thread myself so I'm winding my neck in on that one!

The problem with your approach redtoothbrush is that you are wanting to fix a deep seated societal problem that is not, in its entirety, about the trans movement, although it definitely highlights it I agree, by pegging it at transgenderisms door.

Transgendism is being used as a trojan horse to INCREASE this though.

It's not laying the blame at trans people. Indeed I'm of the opinion that many are themselves the victim of the ideology themselves. Precisely because of a failure to challenge what gender stereotypes are.

You HAVE to spell it out in its most basic level in order to start to crack the nut. That doesn't solve the problem throughout society, but acknowledging what the problem IS, is a massive step forward and really isn't that hard.

Littl, see this is behaviour I just don't understand and that's where the original point came from. We can't start with flowers and parades and ignore the effects on others. That's where it's so wrong. Nothing happens in isolation.

With mine I have tried specifically not to do that although I understand that people here may not see it that way.

I strongly agree that many are the victim of the ideology.

I also agree that it is being used as a trojan horse.

I agree that male violence has to be addressed at its most basic level in order to change anything.

I disagree that any of that means that we shouldn't address how to help transgender people be safe without compromising the safety of women. The two debates can be addressed as standalone issues if you approach the trans debate from a standpoint of "male access to womens space is unsafe for reasons already quantified over 100s of years (ish) therefore we need to find a solution for trans people that does not compromise that but also attempts to protect them from that same male violence".

I know the TRAs are determined to get their own way but that doesn't mean they should. If we're not prepared to discuss the trans debate without tying it up completely in the male violence debate then we are going to find the people who are talking gain ground and we are left with the issue around Male violence we've always had and a free pass for men in safe spaces.

OP if you don't think transwomen are women and you don't lie, why are you calling your son a woman?

I haven't?

As I said upthread I believe transgender is different to Male or Female so I'm not sure where you've got that from, perhaps I have mispoken somewhere?

So you don't refer to your child as male or female? What pronouns do you use when talking about them?

Barracker, sorry if you feel I'd withheld permission in some way,

Sorry, judge my phrasing was clumsy. I didn't mean that.
It's more, whether you were aware or not, as the parent in this thread, you hold the power to allow or disallow everyone else to call your son, your son. With your permission, we can. Without, you can ensure we are deleted or banned. It isn't that you asked for that power. It's that the talk guidelines grant that power to any individual who calls themselves trans, or their proxy.

It's the principle I resent, not you.

But to the point, without being able to call a spade a spade, lots of us feel we, and the truth, are hostage to a very strange power to compel or ban speech.

Transgender and tend to stick to non gendered. Occasionally birth pronouns happen but that's never been an issue. I would struggle with opposite pronouns so this seems the best compromise all round. In reality I seem not to use pronouns much at all, I tend to use a lot but that's unconscious and I think I do similar with other people too (except my partner with whom I have a weird aversion to using their name to their face but that's just a weirdism of mine)

Did you catch my earlier post about, um, labradors?

It steers in a different direction from male violence into women's consent.

Ok, I can see how that happens yes.

I, personally, feel it should be simply intent. If your intent is simply to be clear then that's one thing. If your intent is to bully then that's another. However I'm not sure hq would gave a great time if they started policing "intent". That's a difficult one all round I suppose.

No barracker, sorry, I'll scroll back and take a look.

Ok thanks for clarifying. So you don't see your son as female, you still consider him to be male although you prefer the transgender label as you see it as a reasonable compromise?

Exactly that faire. Again not perfect I admit.

Barracker, I found the post you mentioned, in it you said this;

One phrase you said, though, leapt out at me. You said I so wish we'd arrived at a point in time where predatory men didn't exist so that it would be easy to give transgender people access without fear

I'm sure you didn't fully consider the implications of what you said. Because by 'transgender people', you mean boys and men, and by 'access', you mean access to women and girls.

You've taken what I said slightly differently than I intended it however, reading it over again yes I probably was coming at it from a pov of trans people being able to access preferred spaces which isn't quite what I want really.

A more clear way of putting it would probably be to say that I would like us to be at a point in time where predatory men didn't exist so that we could all have access without fear. Meaning a trans woman could use the changing facilities of natal men without fear of violence. Women wouldn't have to fear the trojan horse access technique etc etc. However that's barely worth a mention given just how far removed we are from that reality.

I hadn't interpreted the guidelines quite like that myself

Guidelines forbid "misgendering". If someone on this thread correctly sexed your child and you didn't like it and reported them, their post would be deleted. If they did similar three times within a six week period across FWR - and note, without being nasty about it necessarily, but for all the reasons Red and Barracker have laid out - then they would face a suspension.

Fair enough. Not my ideal way to handle it but I'm far from the only poster here so I guess hq have drawn a line where they see fit.

However I'm not sure hq would gave a great time if they started policing "intent".

Are you aware that FWR is monitored externally and bad faith reports go in frequently? And that intent is policed here on a daily basis?

Yes Lang, like I said I don't think hq would have a good time monitoring intent. The fact that others do with the specific aim of policing discussion is pretty disgusting imo but there isn't much we can do about it without closing the doors which defeats the purpose of the site somewhat.

Gosh this is an interesting thread and many thanks to the OP who has engaged and responded to robust challenges. And thanks to the robust challenges, hopefully this sort of discourse gets people really thinking.

It appears to me that it becomes so difficult when the 'trans' child is your own, but it really isn't. It's a sincerely-held and researched stance in GC FWR that there is no such thing as a 'trans' child in that 'trans' can only mean, in law, someone with a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria who is taking legal steps to change their legal status having 'lived in role' for two years. Everything else is self ID, which has no legal status. And children and young people should be free to explore their feelings and sense of self without construction or coercion.

Wear what you like. Present how you like. Call yourself whatever you like. But don't try and pretend you can actually change sex. And don't even begin to think you can force your beliefs onto me. Not you, personally, OP, you generally.

And, OP, why oh why should it be the job of women to find a solution for 'trans' people to be comfortable? (I put 'trans' in inverted commas to encompass the vast range of different presentations it covers. Choose your own interpretation). Trans people say they feel unsafe using certain facilities, but women feel unsafe when males who identify as trans use women's facilities. Why are trans people's feelings expected to trump women's? Nobody will ever answer that question.