My daughter was assaulted tonight - why I'm against self ID

[JudgeFlounceRedRugBlah]

Been around since it was all fields etc. but name changed as this concerns my children.

So, one of my children is transgender. My child is wonderful, kind and strong. I've struggled with the transgender debate because of this. They have no obvious signs of wanting to pervert womanhood just to emulate it. Imho as transgenderism should be.

I've also got daughters and, as a women, am well aware of how vulnerable a girl or woman can be when singled out and this has been borne out today. My (underage) daughter was working at her first workplace taking orders at tables in a restaurant. The staff have known her since she was born. They care for and look out for her - thank goodness. Tonight a man followed her to the toilets, pinned her and told her "he knew he shouldn't but he couldn't help himself.." sadly too many women know how this goes.

Luckily another person in the restaurant noticed a man go into the womens toilet and that neither of them came out in a reasonable amount of time. Instead of being scared that the man was a woman and they'd be in trouble with the police for hate crimes they alerted staff who got to my daughter before much more than clammy mauling had happened.

I'm angry at the sleaze who did this to my CHILD. But more I'm scared that we are fast approaching a world where that person could have felt uncomfortable raising their concerns. Perhaps they'd have hesitated just a bit longer, a bit too long. Perhaps the staff would have had a training course about jelly babies.

As it is they did say something, staff did react and my daughter is shocked, a bit scared but mostly disgusted. I can't tell you how thankful I am that she lives in a world where people are, currently, free to say "erm... that doesn't seem right".

My transgender child is going through hell in so many ways, they are battling on a frontier - I can see that - but, much as I support them, I am not prepared to sell my daughters out for it.

I'm aware I may get some backlash from posting this so I apologise now if I have to ask hq to remove. I really just wanted to say thank you to those who are not against trans people but also recognise that not against doesn't mean they have to drink the kool aid. Those who are fighting so hard just to have a proper discussion about it all. Thank you

police called and dealing with it (after a difficult conversation along the lines of "well... we probably won't be able to make anything stick, are you sure you want us to talk to him...

All the people who argue that post event reporting is a) the same as safeguarding and b) an effective way to resolve an attack, should read this thread. We can't "just report it", and even if we could, it still happened. I'm so sorry this happened to your daughter. And so scared it'll happen to mine. It's all so fucked up.

Disgusting that the police are willing to brush off the actions of a sexual predator. What a horrible and scary thing for your DD to have to go through. I strongly believe that a male-born person should not have access to women’s spaces.

much as I support them, I am not prepared to sell my daughters out for it

This ^^ is the point. This is what women have been trying to voice. This is what needs discussing and addressing. Where is the safeguarding?

This cannot be said enough.

My transgender child is really uncomfortable with toilets. They don't want to make anyone uncomfortable or increase their own risk either. At the moment they use gender neutral toilets where they are available. School and college have designated a %age of the disabled toilets as gender neutral and disabled enabled. Not a perfect solution of course for many reasons. Where these are not available they will avoid the toilets if at all possible. In an emergency once they had a friend "cover them" by checking a gender specific toilet was empty and then standing guard whilst they'd peed and ran.

I don't want that life for them either tbh but there's no easy solution presenting itself at the moment, mostly (imho) because of this refusal to accept there needs to be a third solution beyond "move over ladies we're coming in"

Support to your and your daughter OP And to your trans child too.

We need a world where women and girls still have sex-based rights as needed, and trans & NB have gender-based rights as needed.

Everyone matters.

Exactly that, could not have put it better myself;

EVERYONE MATTERS

It shouldn't be this hard.

Stonewall's instructions to universities on toilets and changing rooms:

Students should be able to access facilities that align with their gender or that they feel most comfortable using. This should be stated in publicly available policies.
Staff and students should be reminded to never challenge a student’s choice of facilities.

There is no perfect solution, there just isn't.

Having three options is the least unfavourable outcome though, I agree OP.

We can't be told that challenging males in female only spaces is wrong.

Three options - all the way. Sorts the wheat from the chaff.

Bloody police!!! This happened to my (little) 12 year old son while I was waiting outside the loos. If my radar didn’t jiggle and I didn’t go in, I hate to think what would have eventuated. The police were just as insensitive (and useless) about it. (Basically implying that I was a perve for hanging around then going into the men’s loo.) The guy got away, of course!!! (Despite lots of people outside taking his photo for me!!!!)

I'm so sorry to hear what happened and hope your daughter is ok. However this post has also given me hope. We need more people like you, who have first hand knowledge of what your kids are going through, to speak up about protecting everyone. Much respect.

Thank you for sharing. As others also agree - no ill will towards trans people in general or your trans child at all. Our concerns are solely about the safety, dignity and full rights for women and girls.

There are so many manifestations of sexism in the world. One is the sense of entitlement that led thar predator to follow your daughter and grope her, thinking of her as a thing existing for his pleasure rather than a real, valid human being.

Another kind of sexism - perhaps more gentle and more insidious and beguiling, is that which has convinced your other child (along with many others) that "girl" and "woman" are descriptions of characteristics which are in reality universal to men and women alike, but are suppressed as "unmanly" by toxic masculinity. I'm not calling your child or yourself sexists, but it's impossible not to absorb and be affected by it having been bathed in endemic cultural sexism from birth. It takes effort to unlearn that.

I am glad that it was no worse for your daughter but it will still have been so traumatic. A much "lesser" assault as a young teen deeply affected me for many years.

I wish all your family only the best, and that you all find the peace you each need.

I hope your daughter is ok. Sadly both of your kids will face unwanted male attention.

That’s who we are up against. Male intolerance, homophobia and sexism. The attitude that they can do as they feel because, men innit?

Your kids will face different types of intolerance but I’d guess from the same sector.

Let they eyes be open and keep them safe.

I think the answer is (1) female toilets and (2) gender neutral toilets. Given that every establishment currently has two sets of toilets (male and female), this would be a practical and cost-free solution.

I know men would prefer to keep their sex-segregated space. But from a safeguarding perspective, this approach is lower risk, and this has to be central.

Your poor daughter. No-one should ever have to suffer that kind of assault, it is just vile.
The layers of protection are so important. Someone noticed a man going into the women's toilets and that rung a warning bell - as it should. We keep getting told to ignore the bell.
I don't envy your position, it must be so difficult to provide the best support possible to your trans child whilst seeing the bigger picture that includes your daughter's rights.
I hope she's ok.

So sorry what happened to your daughter but please can all abled bodied people of whatever gender/sex stay out of disabled toilets, when you have certain disabilities which may not be apparent you need to get in there fast...

So sorry to your daughter it’s scary when that happens and worse when you’re young. I hope she is ok. You sound like a very sensible supportive but fair mother. I also hope your transgender child is ok and that they have the support they need for their difficult situation. I genuinely want the lives of transgender people to be as fulfilling and happy as possible. I just do not want to have anyone’s else’s beliefs forced on me or used to take away my own rights to privacy and dignity.

My transgender child is going through hell in so many ways, they are battling on a frontier - I can see that - but, much as I support them, I am not prepared to sell my daughters out for it.

I'm afraid the moment you tell your daughters they have to refer to their brother as their sister and you think that being a woman is about being feminine, you've sold your daughters out.

You have already picked your son over your daughters.

Your poor daughter - I hope she’s ok

And I hope your other child comes through their journey able to be comfortable in their body and with themself

Thanks for the messages of support everyone, they are really appreciated. It's been a bit busy here but we have some progress at least. Hopefully all of us will come out of the other side of everything that is going on relatively unscathed.

Redtoothbrush don't presume to know what I have or have not told my children or how I have supported or otherwise each of them. You may be many things but what you are not is an expert on me and my family. If you'd be interested to know how I have navigated those, very difficult, conversations and how my children have navigated the changes that are going on you are more than welcome to ask. It would actually be an interesting conversation and, perhaps, an opportunity for you to learn something about how one parent is trying to get through all this. Do not judge me based on your assumptions and prejudice. That just makes you as bad as the rest of them.

If you'd be interested to know how I have navigated those, very difficult, conversations and how my children have navigated the changes that are going on you are more than welcome to ask.
I'd be interested to know this (whatever you feel comfortable sharing). I feel genuine sympathy for anyone with dysphoria and I wish it didn't seem to be that this is a zero sum game.

I would like to know if gender dysphoria is not a medical condition, why do transgender people want/need/expect medical treatment? But you don't have to answer if you don't want to as that's not what this thread is about.

Redtoothbrush don't presume to know what I have or have not told my children or how I have supported or otherwise each of them. You may be many things but what you are not is an expert on me and my family.

I've been the daughter.

Either you are gender critical or you support sexist gender stereotypes to the detriment of all concerned.

I fought for a long time over the cognitive dissonance of trying to be both 'an ally' and being against sexism. Ultimately you can't be.

In not standing up to the gender stereotyping that is the essence of trans genderism you are giving a certain message to your daughters whether you realise it or not.

This ideology is so toxic it is impossible to 'sit on fence' over what 'gender' actually means.

When you allow males to define 'woman or girl' by gender you remove the power of females to define 'woman or girl' by sex.

This removes sex based rights and identity by the back door.

This removes power from women and girls to define themselves. Their identity comes second to the identity of males.

For example they can not describe themselves as having a brother and sister. Their boundaries in a relationship are lowered and their capacity to assert their own identity eroded.

I am hyper-vigilant about predatory men and I will ALWAYS call out men trying to access women's spaces. I hope that bastard gets what he deserves. Don't take any shit from the police. Hugs to your daughter.

I can't imagine how hard that must have been Red

When one child in a family's identity is redefined it does by extension set about redefining the identities and realities of the other siblings in the family too, whether they're willing or not.