My daughter was assaulted tonight - why I'm against self ID

[JudgeFlounceRedRugBlah]

Been around since it was all fields etc. but name changed as this concerns my children.

So, one of my children is transgender. My child is wonderful, kind and strong. I've struggled with the transgender debate because of this. They have no obvious signs of wanting to pervert womanhood just to emulate it. Imho as transgenderism should be.

I've also got daughters and, as a women, am well aware of how vulnerable a girl or woman can be when singled out and this has been borne out today. My (underage) daughter was working at her first workplace taking orders at tables in a restaurant. The staff have known her since she was born. They care for and look out for her - thank goodness. Tonight a man followed her to the toilets, pinned her and told her "he knew he shouldn't but he couldn't help himself.." sadly too many women know how this goes.

Luckily another person in the restaurant noticed a man go into the womens toilet and that neither of them came out in a reasonable amount of time. Instead of being scared that the man was a woman and they'd be in trouble with the police for hate crimes they alerted staff who got to my daughter before much more than clammy mauling had happened.

I'm angry at the sleaze who did this to my CHILD. But more I'm scared that we are fast approaching a world where that person could have felt uncomfortable raising their concerns. Perhaps they'd have hesitated just a bit longer, a bit too long. Perhaps the staff would have had a training course about jelly babies.

As it is they did say something, staff did react and my daughter is shocked, a bit scared but mostly disgusted. I can't tell you how thankful I am that she lives in a world where people are, currently, free to say "erm... that doesn't seem right".

My transgender child is going through hell in so many ways, they are battling on a frontier - I can see that - but, much as I support them, I am not prepared to sell my daughters out for it.

I'm aware I may get some backlash from posting this so I apologise now if I have to ask hq to remove. I really just wanted to say thank you to those who are not against trans people but also recognise that not against doesn't mean they have to drink the kool aid. Those who are fighting so hard just to have a proper discussion about it all. Thank you

I am very sorry to hear of what has happened to your daughter, and the struggles as a family supporting your transgender child. It sounds like you are a sensitive mum and your support will definitely help all your kids both cope now and with future challenges.

I wanted to thank you for posting. The thread came up on ‘active’ and I generally avoid the feminist board as I find the aggressiveness in many of the posts very off putting. Through your experience you have highlighted the challenges, and despite naming that you are (of course) angry about what has happened, your time is not aggressive and confrontational (like RedToothBrush). Voices like yours are what draw people into a debate, rather than fighting and defensiveness, and help me understand the point that is being made about there being no clear solution that suits everyone.

I hope I don’t offend by asking, was the person who assaulted your daughter presenting as trans? Or was it a male who followed her to assault her? As this has long happened and sadly will continue, but I understand your point, that the huge risk lies in a message that people cannot even question, I hadn’t thought about that before.

This is why I am against self ID, because it endangers women, girls and genuine trans people (i.e. those suffering real dysphoria, as opposed to AGP, sleazy predators and fetishists jumping on the bandwagon). Your poor daughter, I hope she will be okay.

Michelle it defines who controls power within a family, if one decides to change their identity.

Power dynamics are hugely important in this.

Everyone else dances around that central person, constantly trying not to upset them whilst suppressing their own feelings.

I'm afraid I'm rather short on sympathy for parents who facilitate this, accusing others who don't agree as being 'prejudiced' or 'bigoted', whilst failing to understand the effects long term and short term on other children.

It's always dressed up as being nice or being supportive but it doesn't acknowledge that there might be a problem with facilitating the dominance of one child over another.

Yes that child has problems, but you have to address those issues not just say they are trans rather than a feminine boy which is absolutely fine.

I have issues with the thread in the sense that it's against self ID whilst completely for self ID at the same time, without realising.

The cognitive dissonance is what gets me.

Sorry, RedToothBrush, just reflecting after I wrote that it’s not helpful to criticise your tone without acknowledging you’ve had difficult experiences that have led to that, and are entitled to your opinion. But I hope you understand the point I’m making, without meaning to be personal, is that the anger coming across in posts like yours makes it difficult for me to want to engage in discussion as I expect to be shouted down, and not allowed my own opinion.

Merename, I pondered whether to post on this thread but decided to because I do think the OP needs to be challenged a little over their position and the cognitive dissonance.

The OP clearly wants to be 'in the right' and do the best thing, but unfortunately I just happen to think this is something where you can't be the 'good guy' all the time. And I think being confronted with that reality is essential.

Their child is obviously extremely vulnerable and she is in a difficult position but at the same time, language and phrasing us important. I am acutely aware that children can only self ID.

The thing is the ideology do not allow you to dip in and out and pick and choose which bits you like and which you don't.

That's the trouble. It's precisely why it destroys so many family. The failure to see and understand this is the heart of the problem too. Unless you admit how you are compromising one child because of the flaws it contains you are at risk of repeating them.

Sex can be changed. We are what we are. Gender identity seeks to pretend that we can change sex but ultimately its a pretense. Keeping up the pretense that gender identity is compatible with the vulnerabilities that female bodies have in our society is always going to mean you are unwittingly being sexist.

I wish it were not true. I wish you could change sex. But you can't and that's where reality will always ultimately make itself known.

It causes so much harm to be in denial about it.

Sex can’t be changed.

Anyhoo - yes the sisters will be going through shit too and I hope family supports them too.

As the sister of a gay woman (well she was a child once!) I was bullied at school as well (as her), and lesbians certainly weren’t then, and are even less so now, treated with kid gloves and elevated to a state where they are ‘untouchable’ as he trans kids/adults are today.

But my own theory on this is that it is because they are women, and modern trends are being driven by men. I could be wrong but I don’t think so.

@RedToothBrush
Given your experience what do you think is the optimum way of dealing with a situation where someone says they are trans? I've listened to PiqueResistance talk about the need to deal with "all the other issues" through counselling etc (I think they specifically mention mental health issues, any confusion/negativity about sexual orientation, family issues and maybe there was more) and they're quite strong about the idea of learning to live with dysphoria. What happens if that isn't enough? Or do you think it would be in most/all cases?

When sex can't be changed and gender is damaging what is the appropriate response? (I don't know so this is genuine interest and not goading which I hope comes across).

Language matters hugely.

The automatic go to now is that someone is trans if they are gender non-conforming.

Short hair for girls = trans
Long hair for boys = trans

There is no longer space in our culture for tom boys (see attempts to trans fictional to boys) and there has never been toleration for effeminate boys.

Once you start saying trans you are effectively setting up a long term narrative and set of expectations for a child.

That's the problem. We have programmes in schools which promote the idea of trans or non binary but there isnt equal prominence being given to simply being a tom boy or an effeminate boy.

I do think so much about this comes down to power rather than identity.

An effeminate man is somehow of lesser social status than a trans woman. An effeminate man is viewed as weak whereas a transwomen is viewed as stunning and brave.

Equally a tomboy is viewed as ugly whereas a transman is simply largely invisible.

It's all about a pecking order.

The transkid gets attention and support in a

Sorry accidentally posted before I meant to.

A transkid gets more attention, support and attention than an effeminate boy or tom boy ever would.

And therein lies the rub for me.

Identity is something you project to the world, but you can never escape from yourself. When you try to, I think it does do psychological harm because deep down you always 'know' and people lash out whenever they are reminded of that. That's a lack of self acceptance not society rejecting you. You have to be at peace with yourself rather than expecting the world to 'owe you' your identity by being nice.

I don't know. There is no easy answer to the situation.

I don't believe the whole trans train helps anyone concerned reality. It's a trojan horse to hide behind in terms of other problems. It's a way of avoiding dealing with underlying issues. The co-mordibity is staggering.

There is definitely something of a pattern that is yet to be confronted and addressed by society, and if anything we are doing more to suppress that due to ideology.

The honest conversation that has to be had is simply that you can't change sex and in this sense gender identity is a misnomer. It's an attempt to replace sex with gender and us purely an ideology rather than an innate sexuality.

You can't say you are against self ID in one breathe and in the next say you have a transchild. Self ID is living as the other gender identity in the absence of a GRA...

I don't disagree with any of that.

And I'd add that there seems to be a narrative where to be a trans girl is preferable to being a gay boy. So a young boy who thinks he might be gay (aged 11/12) has recently announced to his circle of (female) friends he is trans. He hasn't spoken to his parents about either possibility. So he has translated "not a 'typical' boy" and/or "attracted to boys" into "must be a girl". And this is in Ireland where he is unlikely to have been given any "education" about being trans while in primary school (but he will in secondary).

The toilet issue is really a massive red herring to me for this reason.

Why are schools going for toilets not comfort in your body?

Great post red. You said something earlier about not being out to fix it, and sometimes not being able to be the good guy.

And I think that's what tears people's hearts apart. That's what is so difficult.

However, your post has that ring of veracity, that is undeniable.

I truly believe that the sexism running through the ideology, from start to finish, is the heart of the problem.

An effeminate man is somehow of lesser social status than a trans woman. An effeminate man is viewed as weak whereas a transwomen is viewed as stunning and brave.

This demonstrates what I mean. A man is considered bloody brave, to don the accoutrements of a woman. He's only doing it because he has to. It's so difficult, but he will do it. Brave, brave man. Let's then give him comfort and cookies by telling him it works and that he is stunning. He is fitting right into the top 'o' the trees gender box of a female, yes he is. Let's complement his looks.

Whereas the man who just naturally demonstrates femininity, or effeminacy, is what? Certainly not stunning, or brave. A bit of a joke, maybe. Someone to send up, or who sends themself up.

How many times have we heard, in defence of a documented predatory transwoman, 'do you seriously think a man would present as a woman, if he didn't absolutely have to'?

Men, particularly, think someone would have to be unhinged to do such a lowly, embarrassing thing.

And then, of course, you have the whole swathe of men who take it a step further and fetishise this desperately low status of women. And get told they are stunning and brave whilst doing it!

It's a mindfuck of catastrophic proportions.

And of absolutely no surprise whatsoever, to women, that it's largely women who are suffering because of it.

JudgeFlounceRedRugBlah

for you, your daughter and your family. I genuinely hope you can navigate these choppy waters to provide the best possible outcome for everybody.

My mum was always the nicest person ever. Wouldnt want to hurt a fly.

That was always her weakness too. Trying to be the good guy to everyone. And ending up as something of a doormat in the process whilst inadvertently hurting me and my interests.

She defended the most appalling behavior in the name of being nice. There was always a massive underlying current of trying to make up for her own guilt and sense that she'd failed my brother because he wasn't a 'proper man'.

My parents had spent years trying to get my brother to be 'more male' by finding the 'right sport' for him for example.

On the surface my mum was always very pro women, but the flip of that was still that she still didn't really think men and women were equal either because men still should be gender conforming whereas it was OK for women not to be.

And that does reflect a lot about the invisible transman mentality too.

Yes, that is such good point. The oft repeated, even on the Mhairi Black thread in the last day, "men wouldn't demean themselves and call themselves women unless they absolutely had to" is pure unadulterated misogyny and I can't believe I have only just noticed.

OP, for your daughter. I hear your mother's heart here, and I have been in a similar situation with my child. Tbh, from what you've said, I think you probably know it's not possible to be the good guy in every instance. My best wishes to you.

Why are schools going for toilets not comfort in your body?

That may well be a rhetorical question. But clearly because it is much easier to fiddle around with toilet arrangements than it is to confront the complexities of addressing all the factors that have brought us to this point.

Thanks for your post. You nailed it from the outset when you said Language matters hugely. Our capacity to communicate, our capacity to solve problems and even science are being undermined by the attempts to re-define language. We lie to be kind. I don't know what sort of kindness that is but it makes it very hard to move forward if that's the starting point.

My degree is in communication but I've also done a management course and I find how the two fit together striking and applicable to just about everything in life.

Failures in management are rooted in deciding the outcome before identifying what the problem is at its heart rather than assuming it, exploring it fully without prejudice and preconceived ideas, then coming up with a range of solutions which you list the pros and cons of each often with a consultantion to pick up ones you might have missed and THEN deciding on a course of action.

The trans agenda started out with a narrative which was set - people should be able to be the gender identity they felt comfortable with. Once set all the other bits had to fit in with the already decided outcome. This in particular cut out the consultation part of the process.

Affirmation only? How the hell does this fit in with good management practice?

This is basic level stuff, not a high academic standard which requires you to be brain box of the year.

From there communication was only done to fit the narrative by the original framing rather than looking at the wider actual problems faced by those in society.

See Stonewall and its selective interests for the most glaring examples. It has been fundamentally mismanaged.

The problem was never that people were 'born the wrong sex'. Yet this was what was decided the problem was.

The wrong sex narrative can be very strongly linked to sexism for this reason. You can not remove sexism from transactivism as a result. It is crucial to its make up.

You can't change sex no matter what you do. The problems surrounding your sex are never going away. Your body is an inescapable prison for want of a better expression. Solutions will not come from wanting to change your body for this reason.

Yet we fail to adequately communicate this. This framing sets the tone for everything that follows.

The problem was that some people are gender non-conforming.

Everything stems from your understanding of which of the two paths of framing the problem you follow.

Trans ideology has the premise that you can replace sex with gender. Thus it is always going to be laced with sexism because it started out identifying the problem as our sex not our gender.

Hence where we are.

And why you ultimately can not dip in and out of being an ally and being gender critical. Not without cognitive dissonance and total incoherence. If you do, you simply have some denial going on somewhere.

And that is what everyone, particularly the OP, should look very long and very hard at.

Datun you are so right about the feting of men who transition and the contrast with how effeminate men are treated.

Were Larry Greyson or Melvyn Hayes ever celebrated as stunning and brave? Actually they both were. They were themselves, openly in their work, and were laughed at for it with all the flak that came with it. Frankie Howerd, Kenneth Williams, Charles Hawtrey. All able to be on stage and in character the flamboyant, camp, effeminate men and to behave in ways that would have got them arrested or beaten up off set. And it wouldn't have been women who were the threat, this is and has always been about men policing toxic masculinity.

Lesbian and girls not obeying stereotypes at school are certainly coming under open pressure to transition as more socially acceptable. The fuss made of and protections and attention hedged around trans children is certainly far greater than around any other vulnerable or bullied group. You can't blame kids at all for seeing where the easier/nicer path lies.

*You can't change sex no matter what you do. The problems surrounding your sex are never going away. Your body is an inescapable prison for want of a better expression. Solutions will not come from wanting to change your body for this reason.

Yet we fail to adequately communicate this. This framing sets the tone for everything that follows.*

100% this.

I wonder if part of the reason we don't communicate this (apart from not being "kind") is that we live in a culture of entitlement where we don't like to hear, sorry but that just isn't possible/ok/going to happen. Surrogacy is one that springs to mind here. Rather than tell a wealthy person that they will never have a child with a biological link to them, we tell them that they can buy the body of a poorer woman and use her for breeding purposes.

My son told me the other day that a school friend who was a girl called one thing is now a boy called something else.

I said to him, you should always be respectful if someone changes their name, but you know it's not possible to change sex, yes?

I dealt with my own daughter the same way when she said she was a boy - I have always been happy for her to present herself to the world as she wants, but I have always been entirely honest about reality.

This keeps being presented as a confusing path to tread, but it seems very basic to me. Material reality exists, and humans are also endlessly creative and imaginative. Both these things are true - it's entirely possible to acknowledge inner feelings, and also acknowledge the immutable parts of material reality. This really shouldn't be so hard.

Lesbian and girls not obeying stereotypes at school are certainly coming under open pressure to transition as more socially acceptable. The fuss made of and protections and attention hedged around trans children is certainly far greater than around any other vulnerable or bullied group. You can't blame kids at all for seeing where the easier/nicer path lies.

No, and this is where it all gets incredibly muddy.

Because parents whose children are transitioning are locked into a conflict that they can sometimes find horrifying. And yet at the same time the children's popularity goes up. But if there are underlying issues, their mental health goes down.

The rolling, spinning spikiness of it all needs ironing out. It needs categorising. And it needs clarification and clearness.

Another reason why language is so crucial.

What it doesn't need is a fucking flag.

I know it's just an anecdote but I'm hearing more and more of this typical pathway to transing. In fact I know of two people who have pretty much followed this exact route.

Friend's female child always been shy but mostly ok in primary school. Moves up to year 7 and starts to feel out of place. Gets worse during puberty. Very confused, not sure who they are or where they fit in. Starts to withdraw and self esteem drops. Grades high and school attendance good.

In year 9 tells parents she thinks she is a lesbian. Parents do not react well. This announcement is largely ignored. Child starts to self harm.

In year 10 again tells parents she is a lesbian but parents still in denial. Continues self harming, starts gcses. Grades still good, attendance still good. Declares to friends she is non binary. Cuts hair. Changes name. School on board. Parents not. Harms self so badly that parents agree to refer for therapy.

Year 11 exam pressure very hard. Continues to self harm. Tells parents she is transgender. Therapist tells parents this is the cause of all the problems. Parents accept this and agree to refer to GIDS. Child and parent signposted to mermaids by therapist. Child changes name by deedpoll. Starts binding breasts. Told can have surgery after 8 & hormone treatment at 17 and a half.

Year 12 A levels. Stress levels very high, missing lots of classes, grades falling. Still self harming, suicidal thoughts, admitted to hospital.

Finally parents ask for an assessment for autism and child is diagnosed as having ASD.

So here we have a child with high functioning autism who suffered so much because (a) she was not accepted as a lesbian (b) she was not assessed for underlying causes for her behaviour and (c) was set on a path to transition almost straight away.

She was let down by her family, her school and the medical profession. There needs to be a much bigger study in the links between females with high functioning autism and the rapid rise in ftm transitioning in adolescents..

I’m wondering- and shoot me if I’m wrong- whether there is also a higher incidence of autism among lesbian girls than average?

So often we hear the same story of a girl who recognised that she is same-sex attracted and then that she is diagnosed with autism quite late into adolescence.

I don’t know where I’m going with this, just noticed a pattern in these stories.

That is an interesting question @DodoPatrol - top of the search results for "lesbianism autism":

Uncovering steroidopathy in women with autism: a latent class analysis

Alexa PohlEmail author, Sarah Cassidy, Bonnie Auyeung and Simon Baron-Cohen
Molecular Autism20145:27
doi.org/10.1186/2040-2392-5-27

ABSTRACT

Background

Prenatal exposure to increased androgens has been implicated in both polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS) and autism spectrum conditions (ASC), suggesting that PCOS may be increased among women with ASC. One study suggested elevated steroidopathic symptoms (‘steroidopathy’) in women with ASC. As the symptoms are not independent, we conducted a latent class analysis (LCA). The objectives of the current study are: (1) to test if these findings replicate in a larger sample; and (2) to use LCA to uncover affected clusters of women with ASC.

Methods

We tested two groups of women, screened using the Autism Spectrum Quotient - Group 1: n = 415 women with ASC (mean age 36.39 ± 11.98 years); and Group 2: n = 415 controls (mean age 39.96 ± 11.92 years). All participants completed the Testosterone-related Medical Questionnaire online. A multiple-group LCA was used to identify differences in latent class structure between women with ASC and controls.

Results

There were significant differences in frequency of steroid-related conditions and symptoms between women with ASC and controls. A two-class semi-constrained model best fit the data. Based on response patterns, we identified the classes as ‘Typical’ and ‘Steroidopathic’. The prevalence of the ‘Steroidopathic’ class was significantly increased within the ASC group (ΔG2 = 15, df =1, P = 0.0001). In particular, we confirmed higher frequencies of epilepsy, amenorrhea, dysmenorrhea, severe acne, gender dysphoria, and transsexualism, and differences in sexual preference in women with ASC.

Conclusions

Women with ASC are at increased risk for symptoms and conditions linked to steroids. LCA revealed this steroidopathy despite the apparent underdiagnosis of PCOS.

Full study here:
molecularautism.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/2040-2392-5-27

Crikey.

Thanks for finding that.
I am the parent of a lesbian (or maybe bi) daughter with dysmenorrhea, severe acne and possible Aspergers. Looks like it might be worth raising some medical questions.