Is female impersonation/drag offensive?

[dannybb]

Hi. As a teenage hairdressing apprentice I used to do a drag act in my spare time - a few decades ago. With more time on my hands I'm now thinking of returning to female impersonation - doing drag queen bingo and entertainment mainly in old peoples homes etc.

While I am (and always will be) very respectful of women I'm wondering if the era of men dressing as women to provide entertainment has had its day.

Has this now become offensive or inappropriate?

Any responses much appreciated!

@nottonight

Yes there was a thread about him here at some point

@NottonightJosepheen

Sure thats what I tried to convey by my quotes

In the community I live in men have very obvious privilege over women. And yet, every year some of them dress up as a parody of us.

They dress as women while standing on the men's side of the room reading from texts they bar the women from and leading prayer services that we are not allowed to.

It's offensive. Woman is not a costume. My culture and identity is not a costume.

It's offensive to dress up as a caricature of any oppressed group. Of any group of people less privileged than yourself.

Try a version of a Jane Austen character. Lots of colour and scope. Or maybe a scarlet pimpernel type character (demmed elusive pimpernel). Go as Oberon. Have a look at some of the costumes the men wore in the early 20th century ballet or the more recent male swans in swan lake. Put on a bright and colourful show that doesn't play with stereotypes of femininity.

I'm so glad to see this thread! I had a rant over the advert for Drag SOS and thought it was just me!
Yes, I find drag offensive. Others have said why far more articulately than me but I find womanface insulting.

I'm slightly conflicted. On the whole, yes it is massively stereotyping women and akin to blackface.
However I do know a drag queen and I know that his act was borne out of a combination of a horrific homophobic attack, his ongoing mental health issues and social anxiety.
His drag persona allows him to "opt out" all that for a short time and it is transformative in more ways than one - the make up etc is a mask and he suddenly becomes more confident.
Having mental health issues myself, I understand wanting to be somebody else for an escape, I'm just not sure I approve of the way he does it.

I think that in general we did not use to mind it much or even found it amusing. However the trans agenda has changed things. Now I would find it offensive. Why pretend to be a grotesque caricature of a woman? Wear a dress or wig etc but as a man.

My 12 year old son's seen some bits of drag race on Netflix and we were talking about how they are trying to look like women but I'm a woman and look absolutely nothing like that, I look more like the drag queens out of drag! Was quite helpful to put some things in context for him I think.

I don't mind Drag and see it as different to other types of appropriation. Drag is performance to my mind, few drag queens put on the clobber to pop to the shop or demand to be called Susan so I can't see it as appropriation to the same degree as self ID/putting on a wig and saying you are literally a woman now.

Also drag artists are frequently gay men and it's part of that male gay culture, by men and for men, so it's very different to wanting women to "budge up" to make room for them or doing womanliness "better" or owt like that.

Really interesting views here though so I'm certainly having a more careful think about it.

Fairfax would you feel the same if your friend found 'blacking up' helpful for his mental health?

Just as I said I don't agree with his methodology but I do recognise the positive effect it has on him - hence the conflict.

I wonder if it isn't worthwhile to differentiate between the principle and the particular context.

A few people seem to feel like its the trans issue that has really made this seem distasteful, and I think maybe at least some seem to differentiate between general comedy acts and drag specifically.

I think that to some extent this might mirror the blackface example. Blackface became distasteful because of some pretty specific types of acts. I would say it wasn't the idea that it's never ok, in principle, to play a character from another race, that people object to. We certainly aren't consistent about it, most people think it is silly to always demand that a gay person be played by a gay actor for example. It's quite common for actors who are Native American to play all kinds of ethnicities and Native roles are often filled by actors of other ethnicities.

To me it seems to be the explicit connection to a situation that seems to go beyond just commentary or mimicking or playing a role and is actually exploitative. Really, we all knew an male actor actor playing a woman is not really a woman, is playing a role like all acting, it's this sense that some people now actually think that the role is the thing itself that makes it disturbing.

I also think identity politics has impacted out thinking and this might be something to be very careful about as it can be quite toxic. Even with blackface, in the last few years the definition seems to have expanded a lot, to include anyone darkening their skin for a role and in contexts that don't have any connection to the American blackface comedians, and which would not have been considered blackface a few years ago. I've even seen critisisms of films with an actor who was supposed to be a historical figure who performed in blackface, as if the image itself was some kind of magical bad karma. This seems to come directly out of ideas around identity and appropriation (also toxic IMO) and identity politics hasn't been particularly good for women or really many people at all.

It's to do with the humiliation factor for men stepping down to be women

Yep. This.
That's why it's not funny.

I don't think drag is, or should be, offensive. I know several traditional models and some burlesque models in real life. One woman's whole burlesque is herself in drag - as in the typical overblown makeup and accoutrements. I also know a few women who do male drag or male dress up. I don't see what is, or should be, offensive about having a dress and long hair. Anymore than I see what's offensive about a penciled moustache and tie.

I am uncomfortable with drag for a multitude of reasons, most of which have been covered very eloquently already.

But one reason I haven't seen mentioned (probably as this is a feminist board!), is that I don't think it does men any favours either. I fully support the right of men to wear skirts, dresses, and other feminine clothing - as clothes. Drag acts which make a spectacle of men in feminine clothing only serve to tighten the association between female clothing and the OTT stereotyping, reinforcing the fact that "feminine behaviour" from men is something to be ridiculed. This isn't good for men or women.

A friend of a friend is also a man who does a male drag act - huge curly moustache, ott slicked back hair, pinstripe suit. It's just human beings playing around with characterisations of themselves.

I find the mocking of women offensive. Whilst I disliked the principle Lily Savage was the only one I didn't find too bad. As long as I can remember I found panto distasteful.

I hate drag. It's everywhere, every kind of entertainment type now rolls out drag queens in an attempt to look more inclusive but its just reinforcing stereotypes of women.
I hate, too, the impact its had on young women, the incredible amount of makeup they use and the absolute desire to control every bit of hair on their bodies for fear of seeming in any way masculine. The over the top eye make up in particular is grotesque and just makes teenage girls look like clowns. So sad that natural female beauty is being literally masked to look like men trying to emulate female beauty. I don't get it and will actively avoid anything with drag artists in it.

My dd went to. Drag Queen brunch bingo session last weekend...

Agree with others. If a man wants to wear lipstick or high heels he should knock himself out, but he should do it to express himself, not to dress up as a parody of a woman.

I don't find drag acts offensive at all.

@dinkydonky - you make a very good point.

I don't see what is, or should be, offensive about having a dress and long hair.

Absolutely nothing.

Similarly it’s not racist to go OTT on St Tropez tanning lotion.

The problem is presenting a stereotypical caricature and claiming it has something to do with being female.

It's to do with the humiliation factor for men stepping down to be women

Yes