A woman with mental age of 9 forced to have abortion

[Gingerkittykat]

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/woman-abortion-court-of-protection-ruling-mentally-ill-a8970121.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR0LrwkWGx-4dJtABJSuHLlzyLs7IArhgM_CQVisVjx4Asf3YoCeW4aKk1Y#Echobox=1561203238

I understand that this woman will not be able to care for a baby but cannot believe forcing her to have an abortion under any circumstances is appropriate, especially since she is already 22 weeks pregnant.

I am 100% pro choice, but this woman is having her choice taken away from her.

A court cannot make the decision on behalf of an adult with learning difficulties to abort their child.

What do you think the court of protection is for?

These are exactly the decisions it exists to make. This young woman lacks capacity.

Conditions in homes for people with learning disabilities can be dire.

Then, given her daughter can’t be safely around any baby that comes home, you’d think she’d want to ensure that her daughter’s safety and security were paramount.

Or maybe the maternal grandmother has her own agenda?

It takes a lot for a case to go to the Court of Protection. This isn't an everyday thing. So it's fairly safe to assume that there were very good reasons why it did. The cost of such a hearing, alone, would ensure that only 'worthy' cases get that far.

Unfortunately for those who'd like to debate it on here, we're rightly, not privy to the highly confidential information from all the many agencies that will have been involved.
I'm comfortable, having read the judges careful, thoughtful and caring judgement statement, that all of this information was carefully loooked at, and the least worst action was, after much thought, deemed to be abortion of the baby.

our own personal feelings (and indeed the judge's) on abortion, don't come into what is a very objective legal process.

Of all the unpalatable options before the court, the court decided that a late term abortion was the option in the best interests of a vulnerable adult who lacks capacity.

I don't think I've ever agreed with Lang on anything, but on this I absolutely do. This woman's best interests come before anything else and in this case it is choosing the option that does least harm. It's a terribly sad case and none of the options available are going to do no harm.

I hope someone investigates how she became pregnant but also how it has got to this stage before anything has been done. This young woman appears to have been let down by people who had the responsibility to care for her. I hope now that she gets appropriate care and help to come to terms with this.

I don't think I've ever agreed with Lang on anything, but on this I absolutely do.

We're in the Upside Down cos I was agreeing with Dionne earlier in the thread!

The wishes of the family, which from what we know means the Catholic anti- abortion mother, are utterly irrelevant.
Except that the woman is part of this family and probably (I would imagine inevitably) part of the church. SHE will be Catholic and believe the unborn child is already human with rights. She will believe her child is being murdered and SHE will believe that her child was murdered because she has a LD, as will her Mother and family. For a Catholic you may as well be saying that you are going to take her born infant and smother it, because she can’t care for it. For a Catholic grandmother you possibly don’t understand that the commitment to giving her granddaughter a home is less about “getting a baby” and more about doing what her daughter might choose if she could.

Itwouldtakemuchmorethanthis - this is why it has gone to the court of protection. Those involved in the care and support of the young woman could not come to an agreement on what were her best interests. Therefore, the court had to adjudicate. The mother/potential grandmother will have been heard.

Also every one is saying it's irrelevant that the family is catholic

That is not what is being said. It is the family's wishes which are irrelevant (where btw did "family" come from? Only the mother is mentioned)

It isn't irrelevant. The mother and community will be very upset about this forced abortion. I am sure this young woman will pick up on this emotion to some extent. Earlier I got jumped on for saying there will probably be a service or prayers. But probably there will be. They wont view this abortion the way that you do

The mother and the community's feelings are utterly irrelevant. They are free to do whatever they like and think whatever they like but their views have no bearing on this. If the mother wants to have a service or prayers that is up to her. You seem to be suggesting that a service would be upsetting for the daughter. You have no way of knowing that but if that were the case then presumably the mother would care enough for her daughter not to put her through it? Why should the daughter be compelled to attend?

For the mother. Taking a baby away for its own and her safety is less harmful than forcibly terminating it.

I don’t think that’s necessarily true, for mum or baby.

I’m just glad this all happened before 24 weeks and the abortion was an option.

I have read all your replies. Interesting I have now changed my mind somewhat about abortion law.

24 hours ago I thought abortion should be freely available until 24 weeks and that I agreed with the current law on abortion in England as it stood.

This wasnt because I thought babies were not alive before 24 weeks but because the mother and child cannot be separated before that point it seemed to me that only the mother could therefore make a sensible decision about what to do balancing her needs with that of the baby.

However I do not think that any court or anyone other than the mother should be able to authorise an abortion after the end of the first trimester unless they can demonstrate clear medical reasons, either relating to the mother or the baby.

However I do not think that any court or anyone other than the mother should be able to authorise an abortion after the end of the first trimester unless they can demonstrate clear medical reasons, either relating to the mother or the baby.

If the mother doesn't have capacity and the different agencies can't agree, it can take some time for the problem to a) arise and b) steps be taken to resolve the issues. Things don't go straight to the CoP. There will have been attempts to bring the sides together on several occasions to solve the problem. It's entirely unrealistic to expect all this to have been done, and a CoP hearing prepared by 13 weeks gestation.

I've been watching this thread since yesterday trying to make my mind up about this, such an awful situation for the woman involved and a really difficult one for those who had to make it.

I think I'm leaning to side with the court, in terms of the least shit option out of only shit options. I think having a baby taken away from you and not understanding why or possibly even that's what will happen is worse than terminating before it's really a baby.

I thought I'd also add- and I don't mean to suggest this is the case for everyone or to minimise anyone else's experience, but I had a late term abortion and it wasn't how other pp have described. The physical pain afterwards was nothing like that of childbirth and I healed from it much faster than I did having my two DC. Everyone's experiences will be different, so I don't think you can compare them in terms of what will be most painful or physically taxing for the woman.

I hope they find out how this happened and she is given all the support she will need.

However I do not think that any court or anyone other than the mother should be able to authorise an abortion after the end of the first trimester

But the mother lacks capacity so cannot authorise anything. it's not about abortion. FFS.

Except that the woman is part of this family and probably (I would imagine inevitably) part of the church. SHE will be Catholic and believe the unborn child is already human with rights. She will believe her child is being murdered and SHE will believe that her child was murdered because she has a LD, as will her Mother and family.

You're projecting massively, itwouldtake. We have no idea whether this woman is Catholic, more importantly we don't know what if any understanding she has of Catholic dogma, let alone what if anything her beliefs in that respect are. Again, if they are important in relation to the decision to be made, evidence of that will undoubtedly have been provided to the court and fully taken into account.

As for what the Catholic grandmother's wishes and motivations might be, if her motivations are dictated by her religious beliefs they really cannot outweigh the best interests of the mother.

@langcleg I am saying that in my opinion because the mother doesn't have the capacity to chose to abort her child the law should not allow this decision to be made on her behalf after the early stage of pregnancy unless there are medical reasons.

I think the law should be changed. I hadn't realised that this situation was possible.

However I do not think that any court or anyone other than the mother should be able to authorise an abortion after the end of the first trimester

Take this scenario: a woman who lacks capacity is pregnant in circumstances that will undoubtedly leave her dying in agony if the pregnancy goes beyond, say, 18 weeks. No-one realises she is at 13 weeks, and the woman is incapable of understanding the dangers to her. A woman who has capacity can terminate the pregnancy, the woman who lacks capacity can't and goes on to die in agony.

Wouldn't that be more than a trifle disablist?

OK, I see that that scenario would be covered by your exception for medical reasons, Grapefruit. I trust that those reasons would include mental health reasons, including the distress she would suffer if the baby is taken away or she has to leave home?

I think not knowing the full background history here etc.. and being the DM to a 30 year old who has cerebral palsy it could be that the girl was in a sexual relationship and the DP also had LD but it was managed and she was on the pill. Even though she has a 'mental age' of a 9 year old she would still have the hormones etc... of a grown woman. Because of her health issues she may have been on antibiotics at any given time which can effect the pill and she became pregnant but her parents could have been ignorant to the fact that effectiveness of the pill was effected. Her relationship with her DP could have been managed by the parent/s but on the occasion that she got pregnant she may have been in the company/ guardianship of carers which would justify the statement of 'looking into how she got pregnant' of course I am just speculating here but I remember when my DD started residential college ( she has capacity BTW) I was very pressured from day 1 ( at interview for the college) to put my DD on the pill/ injection) I was gobsmacked knowing full well that because of her severe physical limitations there was no way she could get pregnant without the aid of a hoist and two carers! But as my Dd told me at the time with a 😉 IF I was determined enough there are ways 😵😵 thankfully she was only joking but clearly she was right as when I had to use the student loos a little while later on the floor there was a condom.

@isatis I said without medical reasons

Obviously in the case you outline an abortion should be allowed.

Just like in the third trimester you can still have an abortion for medical reasons

You're projecting massively, itwouldtake. We have no idea whether this woman is Catholic
Apologies I thought they were Catholic. My misunderstanding.

@isatis Actual mental health conditions being made worse by the pregnancy? A distressed young woman whose mental health is worsening? Whose psychiatrist recommends that the pregnancy is making things worse and preventing effective treatment? Yes absolutely.

Some hypothetical scenario that in the future she may be more upset by the birth than the abortion? No.

@itwouldtakemuchmorethanthis they are catholic. It's in a few different Catholic news sources on line.

*I think that's awful. And if a nine year old did get pregnant, it would still be their choice to go ahead with the pregnancy. There's no mandatory abortions below a certain age limit8

A nine year old girl could not give informed consent or make any meaningful choice about something quite as serious. In fact, a nine year old's life may well be in serious threat by carrying a pregnancy to term.

The woman's mother is Catholic. I'm not sure that it's possible to say that someone without capacity has a faith.