A woman with mental age of 9 forced to have abortion

[Gingerkittykat]

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/woman-abortion-court-of-protection-ruling-mentally-ill-a8970121.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR0LrwkWGx-4dJtABJSuHLlzyLs7IArhgM_CQVisVjx4Asf3YoCeW4aKk1Y#Echobox=1561203238

I understand that this woman will not be able to care for a baby but cannot believe forcing her to have an abortion under any circumstances is appropriate, especially since she is already 22 weeks pregnant.

I am 100% pro choice, but this woman is having her choice taken away from her.

But the judge pointed out that social workers were unlikely to accept this, because of the risks posed by the woman’s psychological limitations.
She said that if the baby stayed with the mother, the woman might have to leave her home

So if the mother had another baby she would have to leave her disabled daughter 🙄 what a load of shit.

Im currently 23 weeks pregnancy and can feel my baby kicking and moving. Its not an abortion its murder....

However I do not think a judge should be intervening in this way against the wishes of this family. The justification is too weak

The wishes of the family, which from what we know means the Catholic anti- abortion mother, are utterly irrelevant.

Where is the actual clinical or medical evidence suggesting outcomes are better for women forced to have a late term abortion versus adoption.

This decision is a wholly subjective one based on assumptions and not any empirical evidence.

How do we know that her suffering will be less. And a forced hysterectomy with the abortion is grotesque.

Interestingly Ann Furedi of BPAS has also publicly said on Twitter that she feels this decision is wrong.

But the judge pointed out that social workers were unlikely to accept this, because of the risks posed by the woman’s psychological limitations.
She said that if the baby stayed with the mother, the woman might have to leave her home

So if the mother had another baby she would have to leave her disabled daughter 🙄 what a load of shit.

Yes. She would probably no longer be able to have the adult daughter live with her.
If you had a baby, would you have someone live with you who was a danger to your baby? If you would, it's likely that you would be flagged up to social services.

*Um it's worse for her because her baby will be dead. She will most like realise this to some extent.

How do you know what her capacity for memory and reasoning is? How would you explain the difference between “dead” and “not there” to a small child?*

If she has the capacity of a 9yo than she can understand death. I've known a 9 yo with terminal cancer who unfortunately understood what was happening.

An abortion this late will pretty much be the same as a c section, the only difference is the baby is killed at the end.

A dead baby is more psychologically damaging than knowing the baby has gone to a good home.

There is no reason to support this except for dogma, population control, and eugenics reasons. These are the real reasons people are pushing for this, but are trying to mask it by saying it is for the best of the woman. It's not. At best it is subjective and at worst it is an attempt at eugenics and population control.

Hang on.

Someone had sce with somebody with the mental age of 6-9? I know everyone deserves to have sex but it seems wrong. I think because obviously the person having sex with her must know shes a child at mind?

Forgive me though, I didnt read the article, there could be a bigger story I'm just too lazy to read it.

She might have a boyfriend with a similar level of LDs to her.

State ordered abortion of the child of a woman with learning disabilities against her wishes and her families (in the absence of serious medical conditions etc) is a massive violation of her human rights

What if the mother's wishes are based on a delusional understanding of the facts? Notably that the birth will be easy, the baby will just be like a doll and will never cry or need a nappy changed or a feed at an inconvenient time, and they can all just live happily ever after? In particular, that all concerned will ignore the fact that she, the mother, presents a danger to her child and will leave this living doll in her care?

If it were the other way round and a mother wanted to kill her baby because she has a delusional belief that it is a monster, we wouldn't allow her wishes to take precedence.

Ok a read the article.
I agree with judge 100% based on how much the girl knows.

When asking a 6-9year old if they want a new baby, they would be jumping with joy.

If you told a 6-9year old how babies ate made and birn and what it involves, they grimace and say they will never have children.

Children dont understand. She might have a 20something year olds body, but the fact she has the mental capacity of a 6 year old should be enough to say actually, this cant happen.

The fact that police are still investigating how she even got pregnant makes me feel itchy. That poor girl.

If she has the capacity of a 9yo than she can understand death. I've known a 9 yo with terminal cancer who unfortunately understood what was happening.

I am still trying to work out why a termination would be emotionally worse for her than having a live baby whisked away never to return.

Are you alluding to guilt cranston, rather than just grief and loss?

Is abortion guilt inmate do you think? What would happen if men got pregnant, or if religions stopped prying into the contents of female uteri?

Also every one is saying it's irrelevant that the family is catholic.

It isn't irrelevant. The mother and community will be very upset about this forced abortion. I am sure this young woman will pick up on this emotion to some extent. Earlier I got jumped on for saying there will probably be a service or prayers. But probably there will be. They wont view this abortion the way that you do.

None of this would matter if there was a proper reason behind this (like she needed cancer treatment or was distressed by the pregnancy and harming herself etc etc) but if it's a matter if of weighing up what's in her best interests I don't find the cultural and family context in which she lives and is cared for to be of no relevance.

Anyway I agree with @Caro there is no evidence that a forced late abortion is better for anyone than birth followed by adoption.

And that's maintaining the legal fiction that the baby is just a clump of cells. When everyone knows it isn't and women (as opposed to courts) know this too when they make decisions about late abortions.

If she has the capacity of a 9yo than she can understand death. I've known a 9 yo with terminal cancer who unfortunately understood what was happening

No, saying someone has a mental age of 9 (or, in fact, 6-9 in this case) really doesn't mean that they are on exactly the same intellectual level as a 9 year old. A 9 year old, for instance, would probably have alerted someone to the fact that something was happening to her body considerably earlier.

but when in comes to late abortion I see a dogma as absurd to me as saying transwomen are women

You're deliberately missing the point of what many women have pointed out to you. This case is not, and was never, about the rights and wrongs of abortion. This case is about the best interests of a vulnerable adult who lacks capacity.

Whatever one's views on late term abortions, they are legal in the UK. This means that a late term abortion was an option on the table for the court of protection in this very distressing case.

Of all the unpalatable options before the court, the court decided that a late term abortion was the option in the best interests of a vulnerable adult who lacks capacity.

Sometimes, best interests is a synonym for least harm where protection matters are concerned.

Do I think the court of protection is infallible? No. Do I think it has made an error on the best interests of this vulnerable adult in this case? I don't and can't know for sure unless the full judgement is made available. Do I think it more likely than not that the court has come to the best available judgement given all the circumstances? Yes.

It isn't irrelevant. The mother and community will be very upset about this forced abortion. I am sure this young woman will pick up on this emotion to some extent. Earlier I got jumped on for saying there will probably be a service or prayers. But probably there will be. They wont view this abortion the way that you do.

Well, tough. The mother and community maybe should have done more to look after this girl. No doubt they're also very upset about her mental health difficulties including her mood swings and her learning disabilities, and she may well pick up on that. If the mother is truly Christian, she isn't going to stigmatise her daughter for any of this. And, if she isn't, religion is still no reason to make the daughter go through childbirth only to have the child taken away or to be moved out from her home for the baby's safety.

@langcleg I am not deliberately missing the point. Instead you have not understood my point.

I think that abortion in this country should be legal so that women can make a decision that balances their needs with that of their baby without intervention from courts who will get it wrong.

Mostly they will want to do this for their baby because the 20 week scan has revealed a serious abnormality. However others because of religious beliefs about the sanctity of life or other reasons will make different decisions.

A court cannot make the decision on behalf of an adult with learning difficulties to abort their child.

They should not be intervening this late in pregnancy on the balance of anything but only for very clear reasons

“This case is not, and was never, about the rights and wrongs of abortion. This case is about the best interests of a vulnerable adult who lacks capacity.”

This can’t be said often enough.

@lastis I am talking about the impact this is likely to have on the woman with learning difficulties

I wouldn't be so quick to disparage the mother either. No one knows yet how the daughter got pregnant. Conditions in homes for people with learning disabilities can be dire.

She has most likely given up a lot to care for her daughter and been supported in that by her local church and community

A court cannot make the decision on behalf of an adult with learning difficulties to abort their child.

Yes, it can. And this is what the entire thread is about. You might not like the fact that it can, but there is no easy answer to this situation. As the woman's guardian and the medical team couldn't agree, the CoP had to make a decision based on the least harm to the young woman.

A court cannot make the decision on behalf of an adult with learning difficulties to abort their child.

Clearly it can. In essence it is putting itself in the shoes of that adult and making the decision for them in their best interests. If an adult is permitted to make the decision to abort a child at 22 weeks, then a court is permitted to do so for them when they are unable to make that decision.

Are you saying that the Court of Protection's Best Interests jurisdiction shouldn't exist at all? Or that it only exists sometimes? Where do you draw the line?

“They should not be intervening this late in pregnancy on the balance of anything but only for very clear reasons”
I agree. There are obviously clear reasons why in this case the intervention is appropriate. The reasons have, for obvious reasons, nor been made public- but they will have been put before the judge to inborn her decision.

Mood disorders are mental illness not mood swings. Bipolar disorder is a mood disorder. Severe depression is a mood disorder. Some mood disorders lead to phases of psychosis, hallucinating and delusional beliefs. It's hard enough for someone of normal or above average intelligence to live with these mental illnesses, let alone someone with a learning disability.

It is very plausible indeed that an adult with comorbid learning disabilities and mental illness could be a danger to a baby. She might mean well but that doesn't mean that she wouldn't do something to harm her baby. Her mother has to sleep and cannot realistically care for both together if this is the case.

This is not a child in an adult body HJWT this is a complex adult woman with low IQ and suffering mental illness.

I am talking about the impact this is likely to have on the woman with learning difficulties

But you have no information on which you can possibly assess what the impact on her would be. Whereas the court had extensive information, including information about the possible impact of her mother's religion. So why do you know better?