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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Why can’t transgender lesbians just date each other?

529 replies

Hithere12 · 17/06/2019 01:41

I keep seeing online transgender women so angry a female lesbian doesn’t want to date someone trans, but it begs the question why can’t they just date each other?

If they genuinely believe a trans woman is without question a woman and they are attracted to women then surely this would solve all their problems in terms of finding a partner? They could just date each other? Unless they don’t want to date trans women because they don’t see trans women as real women? Hmm Confused

OP posts:
Prawnofthepatriarchy · 19/06/2019 20:58

FlyingOink I compare transition to having a full face tattoo. Fine if you want to do it, just appreciate that it'll dramatically reduce your potential dating pool.

That "trans" kids are not being told this is downright cruel.

Rosemary46 · 19/06/2019 21:25

I just asked my two high school aged kids what a lesbian is and why they might not want to have sex with biological men. They thought it must be a trick question as it’s so obvious to them.

So I wonder why so many adults find this issue confusing and complicated.

My 15yo also asked why no one was hassling gay men to have sex with trans men. Which is an excellent point.

FloralBunting · 19/06/2019 22:31

Nobody really finds it confusing or complicated.

With the exception of young lesbians who have been properly gaslighted, which sadly isn't hard to do in a society which is still homophobic and in which conversion therapy is still a thing, I find it hard to believe that the people who find it so opaque and complicated are in any good faith at all.

Veronicawiththefacts · 11/02/2023 18:20

There’s kinda a lot at worst prejudice and at best misinformation on this topic. i am a transexual and have been transitioning for four years, so I thought I would clarify a few aspects of my personal experiences (which may or may not accurately represent the experiences of others), regarding dating preferences, attraction, validation, anatomy and sexuality.

First, please keep in mind that, although women are beautiful, my preference is for men, and when I say men I mean both cisgender (men who were born with penises for those who don’t know the term) and some trans men (who were born with vaginas). I identified as bisexual prior to my transition and I guess maybe I still am to a degree, but I primarily date men and have limited experiences with women.

To the original post’s point— op, why don’t trans women date other trans women? They do. I know trans females who date other trans women. I’m hesitant to share numbers related to my “body count,” since transitioning but for educational purposes I will I guess. I have personally hooked up with I think five, which is equal to the number of cisgender women (women born with vaginas for those unfamiliar with the term) I have hooked up with since beginning my transition in 2018. Of the trans women, I’m not sure how many identified as lesbians rather than bi or pan, but at least one did.

of the cisgender women I hooked up with, I don’t believe any identified as lesbian. I think they all described themselves as pan, bi, or queer. I’m not typically socializing with lesbians, but cisgender lesbians have flirted with me and asked me out. Most lesbians expressing interest I found not to be my type and rest it just never really materialized (all women have beauty though, and I don’t particularly go for looks so much as behavior, intelligence and character). I also think women expressing interest in me might go out of their way to signal that they are open to women who transition.

as far as heterosexual men, they are attracted and flirt with me pretty constantly. Heterosexual men often are not aware of my trans status, however, and upon learning, their friends pointing it out, or me disclosing it, some -though not all- are no longer interested or switch their romantic inclinations into more booty call/fboy intentions. It can actually be somewhat dangerous for a man not to know, especially if they are with friends and feel embarrassed. I recently went on a date with a man who I thought knew and did not, and it was terrifying and I had to end the date. without getting into particulars, the number of men I have been intimate with who identified as heterosexual is many times higher than the females I have had moments with, and I have had a full and public relationship since 2018 with one who requested I hide my genitalia out of sight when we were intimate. Often purely hetero men do ask if I have had bottom surgery and when I tell them I am working on it but still preop, that is just too crazy for them and they opt out. That is their choice and I respect it.

as far as homosexual men, i hate to generalize about groups and have some beautiful friendships with gay cisgender men, but I would say this is the category I receive the least attention from, as well as the least kindness from. I saw some post talking about how a small percentage of gay men might sleep with a transexual as well as a post saying we are out “blowing truckers.”

For the record, this is a stereotype. I have an advanced degree and I teach professionally. I’m not a prostitute, although I have no anger towards sex workers and sex work is common in the trans community. I will not entertain a man who doesn’t proudly show me off or who is with me for the wrong reasons. And as far as gay men and trans, I do believe there are probably some gay men who wouldn’t exclude a preop trans from their dating pool for genital preference reasons, but in my experience the vast majority don’t respond with excitement to the general package of me because I look too female outside of having a penis, and they want people who look like actual men with more masculine traits.

do I need validation from people being attracted to me, and what they identify their sexuality as? No. I feel validation should come from oneself and god. I believe validation of a person’s identity to be a trap when it comes from outside sources, because it puts you into a situation where you require someone else and makes you a less powerful person. I do care what others think to a degree since I like to continue learning from others and I’m a social being, but I put it in a box where I don’t really care that much about what they think of me compared to what I think of myself. I like to keep my priorities this way. :-)

The major flaws I’m seeing in some of the responses on this board are as follows:

  1. a lot of you seem to think that cis lesbians are a group that have uniform opinions on this issue. That’s not true in my experience, as some lesbians have been attracted and interested in me. They’ve told me this, and I don’t think your sexuality or ideas give you the right to tell them they are wrong or their sexuality is less real or valid for this reason. If it was, that would mean conversion therapy actually works, and I think we know it doesn’t.
  2. a lot of you seem to think a transexual is an unattractive partner to the whole world. I am highly sexualized, and I would say about 80 percent of men I encounter express some signs of sexual interest (which I recognize since I didn’t used to get this level of attention prior to my transition). Whether or not they continue to prioritize me upon learning more about me speaks less to attraction and more to I guess prejudice, or really the way attraction is influenced by the “whole person” and details beyond just what someone looks like. I also find I’m sexualized to a degree by many other females, although it’s more split between those who praise my looks, those who exhibit signs of attraction, and those who are threatened by or fake with me
  3. There is a lot of variation in terms of trans women. Trans women don’t all look the same, and to say otherwise is to stereotype a group based on physical features that aren’t always accurate. When I go to the store for example, men are trying to help me with my groceries or to pull a cart out and their wives are watching their husbands looking threatened like I turned their heads. Does this happen to “biological males” that people recognize as such? I don’t believe myself to have many characteristics of that particular biology except I’m still working on my bottom surgery. My neighbor’s son I found out the other day still doesn’t know I’m not a cis female, and he has been living here for two months. She has asked me not to talk about it around him because she is waiting until he is older to explain; I believe I am well on my road to a perfectly “normal and traditional” life if I want that. We don’t all look like men to a lot of people, but I wouldn’t care if I did most probably, and I’d still own my identity, it just isn’t the reality for me at this point. I have large hips, thighs, a big butt, C-cup breasts, and while my face has some androgynous features (truly androgynous, not masculine) and I’m a bit throaty, my skin, eyebrows, eyes, jawline, cheekbones are all perfectly feminine and all aspects are feminine enough that the majority of people men and women alike don’t know upon first meeting me, despite the fact that I only wear very light makeup (I spend about five minutes). I’m considered classically attractive by most people and have been asked many times if I model. to be honest, I have modeled and been scouted a couple times and told I have an “old Hollywood aesthetic” a few times. this isn’t to brag— I think a lot of beauty standards are unfair and harm women and based on western ideals and fatshaming and I only wish to share my experiences and have my perspective understood. If it bothers you that these facts seem to corroborate my identity or validity as a woman, I again want to stress to you that it isn’t about what other people think that validates me as a woman or a person, and it shouldn’t probably be for you, either, in my opinion.
  4. I’m conjecturing but I think that trans women (I can’t speak for all), are probably frustrated that there are prejudiced cis females who deny that they could ever be attracted to a transexual female based solely on anatomy or biology. When we transition with the aid of estrogen, we to varying degrees take on characteristics that are definitionally attractive to lesbians. physical attraction works based off hormonal profiles and secondary sex characteristics which can be perfectly feminine or not following hormone treatments and other medical interventions. Most I’m guessing wouldnt argue they aren’t entitled to preferences to sex organs, and in many cases they may not be physically attracted to trans women, but it’s silly to assume that they wouldn’t be attracted to certain trans females. Whether they deem a transexual attractive upon learning of their status, however, again is an issue of the ideas brought to bear against our bodies as whole people, and some will refuse to own that attraction the same as hetero men who are initially attracted and then embarrassed or ashamed by that attraction. To generalize, which is always bad but can still be useful, I am aware cis lesbians have unique prejudices against trans women which I have read about or talked with lesbians about in the past, and these prejudices differ from the general prejudices of men (who fear having their masculinity threatened or questioned). Cis female lesbians, by contrast, sometimes have trauma regarding penises and are wary of anything that might be a type of conversion therapy in a society which demands their acquiescence to patriarchal values and that they turn into baby machines for these people with dicks they’re supposed to like, just for example. There’s more to it, there’s always more to it, because educations and people’s understandings are unique and individualized, but there are some general trends. I believe the rather large amount of discrimination against trans by cis lesbians outpaces the level of discrimination by cis heterosexual men in my experience and would imagine this likely translates into dating practices.

I hope this information is in some small way helpful. I was researching some things and stumbled on this thread and felt I would go out of way to type up this whole annoyingly long thing, which I usually wouldn’t bother doing. I just think every now and then it can be good to get a diversity of perspectives out there, and there are so few trans in the world that I don’t think there’s much honest representation about what it’s really like. If you read this much, thank you. I hope you have a wonderful day 💙💙💙

Hoppinggreen · 11/02/2023 18:23

Wow, long post.
Nobody on here is as interested in you as you are .

MartiniFlan · 11/02/2023 18:28

When I go to the store for example, men are trying to help me with my groceries or to pull a cart out and their wives are watching their husbands looking threatened like I turned their heads

😂😂😂

CompleteGinasaur · 11/02/2023 18:29

Zombie thread...

MrsOvertonsWindow · 11/02/2023 18:35

"I am highly sexualized"

Well there's a surprise 🙄

Pudmyboy · 11/02/2023 18:45

Hoppinggreen · 11/02/2023 18:23

Wow, long post.
Nobody on here is as interested in you as you are .

This!

Whatsnewpussyhat · 11/02/2023 18:46

You felt the need to resurrect a 4 year old thread to waffle at us.

Cis is nonsense language. Those adults who were born with a penis are men.
No women has, or has ever had, a penis.

Veronicawiththefacts · 11/02/2023 19:03

Ok, I read the initial responses and I really apologize for not knowing this was an old thread or the etiquette in this situation. Id rather die than to be disrespectful to anyone, and I hope I didn’t do that!! Im excited to be a part of your community and to listen and learn from you all. I won’t apologize though for being vain and long-winded by nature. that’s just a part of me, and I won’t dull it because I’m here to shine ✨If you wish to attack me, please go on. I’m glad I can help you get this off your chest :-) no one can take away from my brains, my beauty or my good heart ❤️

GailBlancheViola · 11/02/2023 19:03

Whatsnewpussyhat · 11/02/2023 18:46

You felt the need to resurrect a 4 year old thread to waffle at us.

Cis is nonsense language. Those adults who were born with a penis are men.
No women has, or has ever had, a penis.

Beautifully and succinctly put @Whatsnewpussyhat no more to be said.

GailBlancheViola · 11/02/2023 19:08

If it bothers you that these facts seem to corroborate my identity or validity as a woman, I again want to stress to you that it isn’t about what other people think that validates me as a woman or a person, and it shouldn’t probably be for you, either, in my opinion.

I don't need or require validation as a woman, I just am one by virtue of being born female.

Veronicawiththefacts · 11/02/2023 19:44

It actually doesn’t address most of the main points I raised, and I hope that doesn’t come off as disrespectful to you. To be honest, I couldn’t care less if you think trans women are men. You’re welcome to that belief as I’m not here to change it at all. Still, I’m afraid I’ve been misunderstood, as what I said doesn’t have much to do with that particular topic.

WickedSerious · 11/02/2023 19:45

MartiniFlan · 11/02/2023 18:28

When I go to the store for example, men are trying to help me with my groceries or to pull a cart out and their wives are watching their husbands looking threatened like I turned their heads

😂😂😂

Yeeeaaaah,I'm sure this happens all the time.

Veronicawiththefacts · 11/02/2023 19:46

It actually happened this week, so it was fresh in my mind. But yes, men try and help me hold doors, help with groceries, pick up things I drop. It’s extremely common.

Helleofabore · 11/02/2023 19:48

Veronicawiththefacts · 11/02/2023 18:20

There’s kinda a lot at worst prejudice and at best misinformation on this topic. i am a transexual and have been transitioning for four years, so I thought I would clarify a few aspects of my personal experiences (which may or may not accurately represent the experiences of others), regarding dating preferences, attraction, validation, anatomy and sexuality.

First, please keep in mind that, although women are beautiful, my preference is for men, and when I say men I mean both cisgender (men who were born with penises for those who don’t know the term) and some trans men (who were born with vaginas). I identified as bisexual prior to my transition and I guess maybe I still am to a degree, but I primarily date men and have limited experiences with women.

To the original post’s point— op, why don’t trans women date other trans women? They do. I know trans females who date other trans women. I’m hesitant to share numbers related to my “body count,” since transitioning but for educational purposes I will I guess. I have personally hooked up with I think five, which is equal to the number of cisgender women (women born with vaginas for those unfamiliar with the term) I have hooked up with since beginning my transition in 2018. Of the trans women, I’m not sure how many identified as lesbians rather than bi or pan, but at least one did.

of the cisgender women I hooked up with, I don’t believe any identified as lesbian. I think they all described themselves as pan, bi, or queer. I’m not typically socializing with lesbians, but cisgender lesbians have flirted with me and asked me out. Most lesbians expressing interest I found not to be my type and rest it just never really materialized (all women have beauty though, and I don’t particularly go for looks so much as behavior, intelligence and character). I also think women expressing interest in me might go out of their way to signal that they are open to women who transition.

as far as heterosexual men, they are attracted and flirt with me pretty constantly. Heterosexual men often are not aware of my trans status, however, and upon learning, their friends pointing it out, or me disclosing it, some -though not all- are no longer interested or switch their romantic inclinations into more booty call/fboy intentions. It can actually be somewhat dangerous for a man not to know, especially if they are with friends and feel embarrassed. I recently went on a date with a man who I thought knew and did not, and it was terrifying and I had to end the date. without getting into particulars, the number of men I have been intimate with who identified as heterosexual is many times higher than the females I have had moments with, and I have had a full and public relationship since 2018 with one who requested I hide my genitalia out of sight when we were intimate. Often purely hetero men do ask if I have had bottom surgery and when I tell them I am working on it but still preop, that is just too crazy for them and they opt out. That is their choice and I respect it.

as far as homosexual men, i hate to generalize about groups and have some beautiful friendships with gay cisgender men, but I would say this is the category I receive the least attention from, as well as the least kindness from. I saw some post talking about how a small percentage of gay men might sleep with a transexual as well as a post saying we are out “blowing truckers.”

For the record, this is a stereotype. I have an advanced degree and I teach professionally. I’m not a prostitute, although I have no anger towards sex workers and sex work is common in the trans community. I will not entertain a man who doesn’t proudly show me off or who is with me for the wrong reasons. And as far as gay men and trans, I do believe there are probably some gay men who wouldn’t exclude a preop trans from their dating pool for genital preference reasons, but in my experience the vast majority don’t respond with excitement to the general package of me because I look too female outside of having a penis, and they want people who look like actual men with more masculine traits.

do I need validation from people being attracted to me, and what they identify their sexuality as? No. I feel validation should come from oneself and god. I believe validation of a person’s identity to be a trap when it comes from outside sources, because it puts you into a situation where you require someone else and makes you a less powerful person. I do care what others think to a degree since I like to continue learning from others and I’m a social being, but I put it in a box where I don’t really care that much about what they think of me compared to what I think of myself. I like to keep my priorities this way. :-)

The major flaws I’m seeing in some of the responses on this board are as follows:

  1. a lot of you seem to think that cis lesbians are a group that have uniform opinions on this issue. That’s not true in my experience, as some lesbians have been attracted and interested in me. They’ve told me this, and I don’t think your sexuality or ideas give you the right to tell them they are wrong or their sexuality is less real or valid for this reason. If it was, that would mean conversion therapy actually works, and I think we know it doesn’t.
  2. a lot of you seem to think a transexual is an unattractive partner to the whole world. I am highly sexualized, and I would say about 80 percent of men I encounter express some signs of sexual interest (which I recognize since I didn’t used to get this level of attention prior to my transition). Whether or not they continue to prioritize me upon learning more about me speaks less to attraction and more to I guess prejudice, or really the way attraction is influenced by the “whole person” and details beyond just what someone looks like. I also find I’m sexualized to a degree by many other females, although it’s more split between those who praise my looks, those who exhibit signs of attraction, and those who are threatened by or fake with me
  3. There is a lot of variation in terms of trans women. Trans women don’t all look the same, and to say otherwise is to stereotype a group based on physical features that aren’t always accurate. When I go to the store for example, men are trying to help me with my groceries or to pull a cart out and their wives are watching their husbands looking threatened like I turned their heads. Does this happen to “biological males” that people recognize as such? I don’t believe myself to have many characteristics of that particular biology except I’m still working on my bottom surgery. My neighbor’s son I found out the other day still doesn’t know I’m not a cis female, and he has been living here for two months. She has asked me not to talk about it around him because she is waiting until he is older to explain; I believe I am well on my road to a perfectly “normal and traditional” life if I want that. We don’t all look like men to a lot of people, but I wouldn’t care if I did most probably, and I’d still own my identity, it just isn’t the reality for me at this point. I have large hips, thighs, a big butt, C-cup breasts, and while my face has some androgynous features (truly androgynous, not masculine) and I’m a bit throaty, my skin, eyebrows, eyes, jawline, cheekbones are all perfectly feminine and all aspects are feminine enough that the majority of people men and women alike don’t know upon first meeting me, despite the fact that I only wear very light makeup (I spend about five minutes). I’m considered classically attractive by most people and have been asked many times if I model. to be honest, I have modeled and been scouted a couple times and told I have an “old Hollywood aesthetic” a few times. this isn’t to brag— I think a lot of beauty standards are unfair and harm women and based on western ideals and fatshaming and I only wish to share my experiences and have my perspective understood. If it bothers you that these facts seem to corroborate my identity or validity as a woman, I again want to stress to you that it isn’t about what other people think that validates me as a woman or a person, and it shouldn’t probably be for you, either, in my opinion.
  4. I’m conjecturing but I think that trans women (I can’t speak for all), are probably frustrated that there are prejudiced cis females who deny that they could ever be attracted to a transexual female based solely on anatomy or biology. When we transition with the aid of estrogen, we to varying degrees take on characteristics that are definitionally attractive to lesbians. physical attraction works based off hormonal profiles and secondary sex characteristics which can be perfectly feminine or not following hormone treatments and other medical interventions. Most I’m guessing wouldnt argue they aren’t entitled to preferences to sex organs, and in many cases they may not be physically attracted to trans women, but it’s silly to assume that they wouldn’t be attracted to certain trans females. Whether they deem a transexual attractive upon learning of their status, however, again is an issue of the ideas brought to bear against our bodies as whole people, and some will refuse to own that attraction the same as hetero men who are initially attracted and then embarrassed or ashamed by that attraction. To generalize, which is always bad but can still be useful, I am aware cis lesbians have unique prejudices against trans women which I have read about or talked with lesbians about in the past, and these prejudices differ from the general prejudices of men (who fear having their masculinity threatened or questioned). Cis female lesbians, by contrast, sometimes have trauma regarding penises and are wary of anything that might be a type of conversion therapy in a society which demands their acquiescence to patriarchal values and that they turn into baby machines for these people with dicks they’re supposed to like, just for example. There’s more to it, there’s always more to it, because educations and people’s understandings are unique and individualized, but there are some general trends. I believe the rather large amount of discrimination against trans by cis lesbians outpaces the level of discrimination by cis heterosexual men in my experience and would imagine this likely translates into dating practices.

I hope this information is in some small way helpful. I was researching some things and stumbled on this thread and felt I would go out of way to type up this whole annoyingly long thing, which I usually wouldn’t bother doing. I just think every now and then it can be good to get a diversity of perspectives out there, and there are so few trans in the world that I don’t think there’s much honest representation about what it’s really like. If you read this much, thank you. I hope you have a wonderful day 💙💙💙

Oh this is really awesome.

Thank you! I think readers are really going to get a lot from your contribution.

Hoppinggreen · 11/02/2023 19:49

Veronicawiththefacts · 11/02/2023 19:46

It actually happened this week, so it was fresh in my mind. But yes, men try and help me hold doors, help with groceries, pick up things I drop. It’s extremely common.

It’s not fresh in your mind , it’s all in your mind.
And someone with a penis is a man - not a belief it’s fact

Helleofabore · 11/02/2023 19:50

Veronicawiththefacts · 11/02/2023 19:46

It actually happened this week, so it was fresh in my mind. But yes, men try and help me hold doors, help with groceries, pick up things I drop. It’s extremely common.

Yes. That is really common. I do it for people all the time. Regardless of the sex of the person. It is called kindness, common garden variety kindness.

nepeta · 11/02/2023 19:54

Helleofabore · 11/02/2023 19:50

Yes. That is really common. I do it for people all the time. Regardless of the sex of the person. It is called kindness, common garden variety kindness.

Yes. Most people are very kind to others who look like they are having trouble with lifting something or have dropped something and so on.

Veronicawiththefacts · 11/02/2023 19:56

Do they also ask for digits? The truth is men very rarely held doors for me, or helped me pick up things I dropped or with groceries prior to my transition. I don’t know why you would think that I don’t have additional perspective on how gendered bodies treat each other given my unique history. I’m also surprised these things matter to you so much, as if it somehow validates womanhood. I’m convinced it has little do with womanhood.

MartiniFlan · 11/02/2023 20:30

Veronicawiththefacts · 11/02/2023 19:56

Do they also ask for digits? The truth is men very rarely held doors for me, or helped me pick up things I dropped or with groceries prior to my transition. I don’t know why you would think that I don’t have additional perspective on how gendered bodies treat each other given my unique history. I’m also surprised these things matter to you so much, as if it somehow validates womanhood. I’m convinced it has little do with womanhood.

Do you also breast boobily down the stairs?

Orland0 · 11/02/2023 20:36

If you have (or had) a penis, you can never be a lesbian. A lesbian is by definition a female homosexual. Transwomen are, of course, free to call themselves whatever they like: however, the rest of us are free to reject that and stick with the original definition of the word - which doesn’t include males, however they identify.

RedToothBrush · 11/02/2023 20:37

So a bisexual male comes on to mansplain to lesbians why it's ok for males to crack on to them because 'there's a lot of ignorance and variance within the trans community and some lesbians like it'

Checks year

It's 2023 and lesbians still are being told that 'some lesbians like dick' by males.

Lesbians by definition don't like dick. If they are doing dick they are bisexual or hetrosexual.

What lesbians like and who they sleep with has fuck all to do with trans women. Because trans women are males.

A man does not get to word salad and tell lesbians that homosexually has been defined because they say so.

Its institutionalised homophobia to redefine homosexuality by gender not sex.

Caturday · 11/02/2023 20:37

🤣