Why can’t transgender lesbians just date each other?

[Hithere12]

I keep seeing online transgender women so angry a female lesbian doesn’t want to date someone trans, but it begs the question why can’t they just date each other?

If they genuinely believe a trans woman is without question a woman and they are attracted to women then surely this would solve all their problems in terms of finding a partner? They could just date each other? Unless they don’t want to date trans women because they don’t see trans women as real women? Hmm

The individual lesbians on this thread are absolutely entitled to define their own boundaries but it is hypocrisy if they also try to define other and all lesbians' boundaries.

You can have any boundaries you wish. You don't own language, though, and if you participate in a sexual act involving a male, it's not a lesbian act, even if you personally define yourself that way in general terms. It's very simple, despite your attempted fudging.

'Gender free woman' is certainly a thing. Some women do embrace the concept and label because it adequately describes them rejecting gender entirely.

'Woman' works fine for me, too.

@MyGastIsFlabbered

I’m a woman who doesn’t have a cat . I don’t identify as a cat owner. That makes me cat free.

My house is smoke free because no one smokes in it.

And I don’t identity with any gender, so that makes me gender free.

The word ‘woman’ works for me too. Just as long as you know it describes my biological reality . It doesn’t mean I sign up to any of the social roles that you might want to ascribe to me.

It's such a weird tactic though.

I mean, has anyone ever been leered at in the street and then thought "ooh yeah, my knickers are slipping off by themselves now some random has yelled at me from his van, let me catch up with him for rampant sex!"

And so goes it with this. It's just more maleness showing itself that their tactic to get women to sleep with them is to essentially catcall them, albeit with a different theme of "I'll guilt you into shagging me". What are the success rates likely to be?

. Surely if they have sex with a transwoman there is the risk of pregnancy and therefore they would need to use contraception (and no doubt condoms are triggering in some way). So yet again, the women have to give up something else and pump themselves full of hormones

On a grimly practical note, condoms are designed to be used on erect penises. If that man is taking hormone drugs, then his erections will not be as hard, his penis may have become smaller etc. So the condom is not reliable contraception.

So all those female-penis-inclusive lesbians will do well to consider other methods if they don't want to end up in The Sun as the first woman pregnant by another one

I get your point OP. My thoughts would be that that would make them homosexual males and therefore would cause their brains to combust because in their minds they are women. Plus women should shut up and put up and do as men say.

Everyone knows the answer to this, it's only four words: "because aren't women".
We live in a world where a truth that is clear to everyone is becoming increasingly unsayable.

Condoms on sex toys???

@2Rebecca
My lesbian friend tells me that her sex toys are used in a variety of places, and that using a condom means they can be moved from one to another without needing to clean them in-between.

it comes across as a bit offensive to make a blanket statement about 'I wouldn't date anyone with the characteristic xxx'

I know PPs have addressed this so I won't say too much.

I can sort of see how someone would believe this in a 'let's all get along' kind of way, but it's that we hear this from people who would consider themselves allies to LGB people that is really shocking.

Seriously, engage your brains.

A woman can date a transwoman if she's bisexual/pansexual.

But to me lesbianism is finding a female body especially sexual body parts, attractive.

If they are not present or male genitals are then to me that's not what a lesbian is.

That's nothing against trans people just what a true definition would be.

If you are a straight woman you may fancy a man who acts feminine but does not dress nor possess female anatomy. In this case she's straight.

Gendered behaviour is part of personality, not biology.

It all comes down to the fact that toxic masculinity isn’t purchased in the mens’ clothing department, so one can’t expect the toxic masculinity to come off with the mens’ clothing. It has always been the case that some heterosexual men have purposely hit on lesbians because bedding a lesbian is an extra achievement, so bags extra toxic masculinity points. So when the trousers come off and the dress goes on, the ‘look what a stud I am’ boast is replaced by ‘look what an irresistible woman I am.’ Otherwise the billions of straight women in the world would be a much better and safer bet if it was simply a relationship they were after. The added gaslighting of ‘well I am a woman, but you’re just transphobic’ is just another variation on the ‘well you’ve not had my dick yet, and my dick is special.’ Enticing lesbians into bed with the promise of a revelatory instant cure hasn’t worked so gaslighting and guilt tripping is the next predictable weapon in the boundary stomping, sexually abusive male’s armoury.

It’s quite interesting, and revealing to note, that plenty of lesbians go out with bisexual and even straight women. I have met plenty of lesbians who are in relationships with women who never thought of going with a woman before they met their current partner and vice versa. Last year I remember spending a drunken evening in Bournemouth chatting to a woman who had just married her female partner, but before they met she’d considered herself straight. There are a lot of lesbians who won’t go out with a woman unless she’s also a lesbian, but for many others the only qualification is that a potential partner is female, and labels aren’t relevant. The fact that some males who identify as lesbian just have to go out with a lesbian speaks more to their need for validation than it does for the fact that they want a partner.

The main reason some lesbians won’t go out with a bi woman is because they don’t like the idea of sleeping with a woman who sleeps with men, or that they might be left for a man. Considering that before a male started identifying as lesbian, they would have been hetero/bisexual, so only sleeping with women who had slept with other men before they started identifying as a woman is logical proof that their reasons certainly aren’t the same.

Sorry, I’m tip toeing around the truth so much that I’m getting confused. Maybe if we were allowed to use accurate language it wouldn’t be so bloody tortuous.

HQ I’m being as polite as possible. I hope you’re not going to delete the words of a lesbian speaking about what is happening to me and other lesbians yet again. Shame on you if you do, and homophobic of you as well.

@Whatisthisfuckery really articulate and great post.

Men who identify as women are still men. Of course lesbians don't find them sexually attractive.

Goosefoot, the term 'lesbian' is clearly defined. It does not mean 'anyone who feels that they are a woman and is attracted to anyone else who feels that they are a woman'.

That isn't at all what I said.

There is nothing to be gained from tying down these definitions too closely, it isn't how language works and it doesn't help make the point that a man insisting that he is a lesbian is stupid.

But if you try and nail down words like this so tightly that you exclude anyone who ever strays from your strict definition you are going to find people will not take your primary argument seriously. They will know of too many exceptions to your iron-clad criteria.

Goosefoot, whatever, mate. From your other posts, you don't actually seem to have a dog in the fight on this one, so I don't think I much care what your opinion of my 'primary argument' is. Words have meanings, lesbian means a same sex oriented woman, and I am about done with the tedious need to explain basic facts in response to people trying to obscure that, or people playing silly arse games for their own reasons.

...if you try and nail down words like this so tightly that you exclude anyone who ever strays from your strict definition.

Lesbians are women who are exclusively attracted to other women. They may have had sex with men in the past but as things stand it's women only.

Women who engage in sex with both sexes are bisexual or, if you prefer, pansexual.

These are descriptive terms. They have definitions. Anyone who says women who have sex with men, however those men identify, are lesbians is redefining the sexuality of countless trans widows, who are het women who entered a relationship with a man. Their DH may have transitioned but that doesn't turn the wives into lesbians.

...you are going to find people will not take your primary argument seriously.

Goosefoot, isn't the whole point that AWAs and their flying monkeys flatly refuse to accept the argument however it's framed?

You may not mean to, but you're appealing to female socialization: be nice, don't be outspoken and then the men are more likely to take you seriously.

Fuck that shit.

It all comes down to the fact that toxic masculinity isn’t purchased in the mens’ clothing department, so one can’t expect the toxic masculinity to come off with the mens’ clothing.

I bloody love that.

There is nothing to be gained from tying down these definitions too closely, it isn't how language works

What? It's precisely how language works. The whole point of language is shared meaning.

A cup is not a bucket. An umbrella is not a hat. Words have defined meanings and the whole issue here is that when people muddy up definitions to make them more 'nice' and 'inclusive' and 'generalised' and 'generous' and other fluffy well intentioned stuff, they destroy the actual meaning of the word.

Which is why, because well intentioned people are trying to persuade lesbians that lesbian can mean lots of things and doesn't JUST mean women exclusively attracted to/in sexual relationships with women we now have people going 'so that means men can be lesbians'.

Please stop, you're helping the homophobia I'm having to live with.

I am becoming increasingly irritated at attempts to redefine the law and the language.
The Equality Act defines people who are gay or lesbian as those who are same sex attracted, and bisexual people as those who are attracted to both sexes.

Anyone who says women who have sex with men, however those men identify, are lesbians is redefining the sexuality of countless trans widows, who are het women who entered a relationship with a man. Their DH may have transitioned but that doesn't turn the wives into lesbians.

Thanks Prawn for pointing this out.

if someone decides to have that done to themselves they need to understand that their pool of potential sexual partners is going to shrink considerably. Lesbians are not responsible for them making that decision and we won’t be held responsible for making up the shortfall
It should be mandatory for healthcare providers to ensure trans patients are made fully aware of all the risks of transition. From bone density issues with Lupron to heart problems with testosterone to the many revision surgeries needed on a neovaginoplasty to having a considerably reduced dating pool.
Straight men in particular who transition will be going from up to 50% of all people being a potential sexual partner to less than 3% of all people. In effect, allowing for personality and individual attractiveness, a straight man transitioning reduces his dating pool many times over. It could be less than one percent who would have sex with him, without even considering who he himself would find attractive.
If he was an incel when he was a straight man he's likely to be an incel as a transwoman. The only difference now is he can get men to have sex with him (which he probably could have done pre transition anyway).
So he's blowing truckers and being abusive to lesbians online, because his sense of entitlement wasn't matched by reality.

Fox and Goose can tell us all they like that we shouldn’t narrow down the definition of lesbian too tightly or people won’t take it seriously, but I can very much guarantee that they still will. Angela who used to be Andy is not going to get hit on by creepy straight blokes looking to score an extra power up, and Angela who used to be Andy is not going to get called an ugly dyke in the street, just for the offence of going about their business. Angela who used to be Andy might get called names in the street just for the offence of going about their business, but dyke will not be one of them, and if Angela who used to be Andy is unlucky enough to find a fist flying their way,it won’t be because the attacker thinks Angela who used to be Andy is a lesbian.

And lets face it, Angela who used to be Andy, who wants to sleep with a lesbian, is not going to try it on with Tammy who used to be Tommy, is they? Because Angela who used to be Andy, and Tammy who used to be Tommy, despite their insistence, know exactly what a lesbian is.

Lesbians know what a lesbian is, men know what a lesbian is, and men who identify as women and as lesbians know exactly what a lesbian is, for dating purposes only you understand.