Use of trans identified male as opposed to transwoman No2.

[happydappy2]

MNHQ There has been much written recently about how the controlling of the words we use, is very misleading. Many women reject the word transwoman as it can be misunderstood. In light of this, would you reconsider yr guidelines that Trans Identified Male can not be used? It would seem a more factually accurate description of a human male who presents in a stereotypically female way. Thank you.

EarlyWalker limekiwi and whoever else that wants to use transwoman transman or even woman/man to refer to a male/female person, do it. It's fine. No one wants to stop you.
No one here wants to stop you using words if you want to.

We are asking Mumsnet to allow us the same privilege to use words that describe our reality of the world, and for us to use words that better describe a male person who identifies as a woman, or a female person who identifies as a man.

My position on pronouns is similar, anyone in the world has the right to say "hi please refer to me using pronouns that I have chosen for myself" and in return everyone in the world should have the right to say "of course I will" OR "No I can't because that isn't my reality in relationship to you" (or whatever reason), and neither type of person should be vilified for their choice, and a transperson shouldn't be vilified for asking either.

Basically the word "woman" and the pronouns "she etc" belong to women so women should have the right to use them as they see fit.

It's not like arguing you should be able to call anyone a Fu*g c*t whenever you want, it's about specific words that are not terms of abuse, that we want to preserve for ourselves, (eg woman, even transwoman if we feel uncomfortable with that) and we should be permitted to do that. We shouldn't be forced to hand them over.
Hand them over if you want to yourself, no one should stop you.

There's no point arguing.

This thread really is already tedious.

Fair enough. You do you.

Will do

Why do you refuse to see the confusion this is causing?

I'm not refusing to see that some people may be confused but some people will also be confused by trans identifying man/woman too, so explanations will still be needed.

Given that you will have to explain to some people, whichever term is used, I think we should not use a term that the people described by it find offensive.

Male who identifies as a woman seems more clear to a layperson so that would make more sense from a clarity of language point of view.

Great! Maybe we can all agree on this.

Given that you will have to explain to some people, whichever term is used, I think we should not use a term that the people described by it find offensive

Same. Why default go for the offensive choice if you sometimes have confusion anyway?
Makes sense to me to go for the non offensive one.

“Male who identifies as a woman” seems to work. Wordy, but it works.

Apropos of nothing, on that Miranda thread (which disappeared) I mentioned Marmalade (with scones) which pissed someone off who thought I was being a GF; I would like to hereby apologise

If MN acquiesce and allow banned words to be reinstated can you really not see what will happen?

You will all be happily using trans identified man/woman and then many other posters will be referring to women as c*s women, constantly.

What will follow will be tons of posts saying
"Don't call me trans identified"

"Don't call me a c*s women. I am a woman no prefix needed".

That is all any thread will be.

Male who identifies as a woman is clear and factual. I could go for that.

but to say no to trans woman as well just seems as someone upthread (or was it the other one?) needlessly spiteful

Interesting comment that women & girls saying no to males is 'spiteful'

Women & girls are allowed & should be encouraged to say no to males when their boundaries are encroached.
Response to women & girls saying no to males is always telling.
This is often encouraged on MN relationship board early in the relationship.

Given that you will have to explain to some people, whichever term is used, I think we should not use a term that the people described by it find offensive.

No problem with explaining clearly if we are allowed by MN to use the words to do so. People do not have a right to not be offended.

Recognising how gaslightling is done is important.

More even than important, I'd say vital.

I’m sticking with man who identifies as trans. That’s more factual, in my opinion.

People do not have a right to not be offended.

To be clear, I am offended by the appropriation in "transwomen" and strongly reject the term "cis". However, I do not think they should be banned.

I have 16 supportive PMs, which means I beat Eresh. I think a bit of lighthearted competition between feminist women is a healthy thing!

Damn!

There are rules about civility and goadiness. I cannot imagine why thread with a trans topic could not be sufficiently managed using those. Every other topic on the site that can sometimes be contentious is managed this way. Nobody's so special that they need different treatment - including feminist women and trans people.

I have 16 supportive PMs, which means I beat Eresh.

I had 83

Women & girls are allowed & should be encouraged to say no to males when their boundaries are encroached

And I'm not disagreeing with that. This is about what name people are willing to call trans women though, not safeguarding concerns/boundaries encroached etc.

Professor Kathleen Stock,

"The constant Stonewall-mandated policing of language in Universities around gender identity contributes to a chilling environment for free academic thought. These are all from Stonewall training documents."

twitter.com/Docstockk/status/1140148804873871360

Policing of language by TRAs is systemic.
It has wide-ranging serious consequences.
Many women & males are saying no.

This is about what name people are willing to call trans women though

It's really not. People are not trying to agree on a particular term. They are trying to persuade MN to allow them to use the term of their choice. Some people will always use transwomen. Some will use trans women. Some will use trans identifying male. Some will use male who identifies as a women etc etc.

All are fine, and all should be allowed.

limekiwi why do you feel you need to be in control of words other people use? Why not let other people have their own preferences?

Why are you trying to police our language?

This is about what name people are willing to call trans women though

No its not.
Its about women wanting to not have their words policed. Words impact thoughts & actions which is key to female safety (see Barra Kerr fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/)

OP wrote:
There has been much written recently about how the controlling of the words we use, is very misleading. Many women reject the word transwoman as it can be misunderstood. In light of this, would you reconsider yr guidelines that Trans Identified Male can not be used? It would seem a more factually accurate description of a human male who presents in a stereotypically female way. Thank you.

To me, trans identifying male would sound like you were speaking about a male.

Excellent. That's that sorted then.

No its not
It's literally what the thread and title is about.
Use of trans identified male as opposed to trans woman. Is what the thread title is and the topic people are discussing.

Barra Kerr

‘This is how I want you to talk about me’.

Almost without exception, the people who request, or demand, others talk about them using specific pronouns, are asking for pronouns associated with the opposite sex to their own.

A simple politeness. A courtesy.

I’ve heard many people tell me they don’t mind doing this, as a courtesy, although it takes some effort to keep up the mental gymnastics of perceiving one sex, but consistently using pronouns for the other. That’s a personal choice, and I respect the reasons why some people make it.

I’ve also heard many people declaring that anyone who won’t comply (usually directed at a woman) is obnoxious, mean, hostile, and unpleasant. ‘Misgendering’ is hate speech. They say.

But I refuse to use female pronouns for anyone male. Because pronouns are like Rohypnol.

One of the biggest obstacles to halting the stampede over women’s rights is pronoun and preferred name ‘courtesy’. People severely underestimate the psychological impact to themselves, and to others, of compliance.

Pronouns are like Rohypnol to your brain’s defences." (continues)
fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

Key descriptors of sex eg girl/ boy, man/woman, male/female are very powerful.

I had 83

Bows down in awe.