Use of trans identified male as opposed to transwoman No2.

[happydappy2]

MNHQ There has been much written recently about how the controlling of the words we use, is very misleading. Many women reject the word transwoman as it can be misunderstood. In light of this, would you reconsider yr guidelines that Trans Identified Male can not be used? It would seem a more factually accurate description of a human male who presents in a stereotypically female way. Thank you.

decomposing it has been explained countless times to you already.....there are numerous ways to describe a transsexual person, we are asking to use the least confusing one.

For clarity once again, the transwomen wish to use the womens changing room.

The male to female trans people wish to use the womens changing room.

Some people think transwomen refers to women who are trans, as opposed to men who are trans.

Why do you refuse to see the confusion this is causing?

Trans identified Male sounds like a transman to anyone who currently uses the term ‘transwoman’ (which is most people)

I’m sure MN said they banned the term initially so that there was less hostility to trans people so they felt open to engage on MN without being ostracised at the first hurdle. Do you actively want to discourage that?

The word transvestite is also in the dictionary.....but apparently that’s now offensive.

Trans identifying male is just as confusing as transwoman is alleged to be to the general populace. Neither one is clear unless you’ve been told which way round it goes

No one thinks actual women are "male" unless they're versed in trans newspeak. Most people are not. So no. As I said, happy to use "male who identifies as a woman" if you prefer, if it's clearer as obviously clarity of language is your primary concern. How about it?

Maybe if you are so dead set against using dictionary definitions you need to rethink the demand of using it when it comes to defining women?

Some people are happy with the term "transwomen" . I don't think anyone is arguing that this term should be banned from MN.

People are arguing to be allowed to use other more factual ways of describing these people, rather than being compelled to use only this term on MN.

Trans identified Male sounds like a transman to anyone who currently uses the term ‘transwoman’ (which is most people)

No they don't. The media uses it. Many people don't. They say things like "transgenders" or use transsexual.

If people use terms on a thread that other people are confused by then we would be able to clarify.

At the moment even clarifying "transwomen" can be deleted.

People are arguing to be allowed to use other more factual ways of describing these people, rather than being compelled to use only this term on MN.

To be fair, there are workarounds. I haven't used TW for the past 3 years, here or anywhere else.

As someone who’s also experienced it, the things I experienced were not in any way shape or form comparable with internet strangers (whom you can freely block or disengage) saying to use their preferred terminology.

Don't you dare pronounce on my own experience of DV to me. You agree with this agenda, so obviously you aren't going to feel that way,

Maybe if you are so dead set against using dictionary definitions you need to rethink the demand of using it when it comes to defining women?

No, because it isn't just a dictionary definition. It's a biological category. The dictionary is just the clearest way of illustrating it.

To me, trans identifying male would sound like you were speaking about a male.
So trans woman is a lot less confusing, as well as also acknowledging them as women too.

Fascinating.

limekiwi are you saying a trans identifying Male is female?

We don't want to "acknowledge them as women". They are male. Not grasped this yet? Or just being goady?

To me, trans identifying male would sound like you were speaking about a male.

That's good then No clarifying needed. Nothing gets past you!

worse, that you have to lie to get people to like you

Quite. This cannot be right.

I have 16 supportive PMs, which means I beat Eresh. I think a bit of lighthearted competition between feminist women is a healthy thing!

Still yay. MNers should be able to use the language that accurately represents their sincerely held beliefs. The rules about civility and goadiness suffice, just as they do on every other topic.

To me, trans identifying male would sound like you were speaking about a male.

Works for me

LimeKiwi
Ref your post at 8.31
That's the whole point here. It's about being able to use the language to describe the correct sex of the person being described. A trans woman is not a woman so why should they be acknowledged as a woman.

The people who keep using ‘coercive control’ need to do some research or maybe speak to some woman who have had their lives destroyed by it. If language is so important, stop minimising something that has a huge effect on many woman everyday and turning it into people who disagree with you. It is gaslighting in its finest form and is completely the wrong term

Recognising control patterns is an important part of protecting women against abusive violent men.

Of course some control patterns eg narcissitic control & manipulation can be demonstrated by members of both sexes.

MN has a long history of women supporting others to recognise parental abuse ('But We Took You to Country Houses' etc)

Women who have been in abusive relationships (eg coercive control/narcisstic control patterns etc) recognise patterns.

Recognising how gaslightling is done is important.

Psycology Today article:
11 Warning Signs of Gaslighting
Gaslighting is a manipulation tactic used to gain power. And it works too well.
Posted Jan 22, 2017

"Gaslighting is a tactic in which a person or entity, in order to gain more power, makes a victim question their reality. It works much better than you may think. Anyone is susceptible to gaslighting, and it is a common technique of abusers, dictators, narcissists, and cult leaders. It is done slowly, so the victim doesn't realize how much they've been brainwashed." (continues)

www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/here-there-and-everywhere/201701/11-warning-signs-gaslighting

Male who identifies as a woman seems more clear to a layperson so that would make more sense from a clarity of language point of view. It’s a style often used to elucidate the term transwoman, and it’s clear which way round it works.

Fwiw Eresh, clarity of language isn’t “my primary concern”. It’s what the thread topic is about.

Male who identifies as a woman seems more clear to a layperson so that would make more sense from a clarity of language point of view

Exactly

Trans identified Male sounds like a transman to anyone who currently uses the term ‘transwoman’ (which is most people)

Yes it does. As was said on the other thread, and has been re posted on here too.

We don't want to "acknowledge them as women"

Fair enough. You do you.

A trans woman is not a woman so why should they be acknowledged as a woman

They're not being acknowledged as a woman. They are being acknowledged as a trans woman.

Is a carpet acknowledged as being either a car or a pet? No, because it means something else even though it contains both words.

They are being acknowledged as a trans woman

This. I could see you point more if it was just woman, but to say no to trans woman as well just seems as someone upthread (or was it the other one?) needlessly spiteful and point scoring.