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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Use of trans identified male as opposed to transwoman No2.

999 replies

happydappy2 · 16/06/2019 22:21

MNHQ There has been much written recently about how the controlling of the words we use, is very misleading. Many women reject the word transwoman as it can be misunderstood. In light of this, would you reconsider yr guidelines that Trans Identified Male can not be used? It would seem a more factually accurate description of a human male who presents in a stereotypically female way. Thank you.

OP posts:
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Stopthisnow · 18/06/2019 06:36

SuePerbly

A) Queer theory/TRA ideology is pushed in the media, because it is a men’s right movement, and men have money and power in society, so can push ideologies that benefit them. Of course they will vilify any women’s movement that opposes them, but the queer theory/TRA ideology still needs to be uprooted as it harmful to females and children, that won’t happen if women are not challenging it because they don’t want to come across as being mean to a subset of men.

B) If mumsnet changes their policy and allows women to use our own terms then TRA’s may well flood the site advertisers with complaints. I don’t think mumsnet (a site mainly for females) should be cowed by such threats. I think most reasonable people would view men who did that as unhinged MRA’s trying to control women’s speech. It is never the right move to give into such bullying coercive behaviour imo.

C) Women should be permitted to use our own terms to talk about safeguarding, as well as to describe our own views, thoughts and feelings, without being restricted because some males don’t like what we say or how we say it.

D) Many women find it massively offensive and demeaning when males call themselves women, transwomen, and lesbians, male’s feelings should not be more important than female’s, particularly on a feminist board. It is accurate to describe males as men. When we name males as men, it helps people to understand the reality of what is actually going on when they demand entrance to our spaces. For example, saying ‘a transwoman believes she should have the right to enter female spaces, because she claims she poses no harm to women’, has a very different impact to saying ‘a man who claims he is a woman believes he should have the right to enter females spaces, because he claims he poses no harm to women’. The latter is more likely to get the public to understand the problem very quickly imo.

E) Women should be able to use our own terms, not be forced to use a term dictated to us by males, allowing women to use our own terms gives a little of the power of naming back to women. We can easily explain why we use our terms if needed.

F) Females don’t pose the same risk to each other as males do to females, regardless of what they look like, most females who claim/believe they are men would likely prefer to use the men’s or third spaces anyway, but that has nothing to do with the issue of naming males as males/men, which is what this thread is about.

...there is an awful undercurrent of glee at being able to hurt those individuals who self refer as "Trans women" by ramming home the point that they are male.

They are male though, if it upsets some men to have this pointed out perhaps they would do better by focusing on accepting reality, so that they are not as easily upset by someone accurately acknowledging their sex. It is not women’s responsibility to walk on eggshells incase they upset a male’s feelings, it certainly should not be the priority on the feminist board, which should centre females not males imo.

It is totally unfair and out of line to make transwomen the only marginalised group unable to have their preferred terms respected...

Males, regardless of how they identify, are not marginalised or oppressed by females. On the contrary, males, regardless of how they think of themselves, are part of the group that oppress females, by allowing males to redefine themselves as a type of woman it gives the dominate class (men) the power of naming over the subjected class (women). This then allows a subset of men to claim to be somehow different to other men, and has led to them saying women are actually oppressing them, that they should be in our spaces, that they can be lesbians etc, etc. Which is why women should always have the power of naming our own reality.

...posters would still renounce the description of themselves as "c1s" yet it is ok to impose YOUR preferences on another group.

If you use ‘c*s’ people will tell you why they object to it, but posters here are not calling for it to be banned, and neither are we calling for ‘transwoman’ to be banned. So how is that imposing our preferences on anyone? It is TRA’s and their supporters imposing their preferences on us, by saying we can use their word ‘transwomen’, but we can’t use our own words.

The rest of the post was just appealing to women to be nice or else we will loose support. Women shutting up and doing what controlling TRA’s say gets us nowhere as we have seen.

2BthatUnnoticed · 18/06/2019 06:51

Why was Datun’s very reasonable post deleted?

Wtf is going on?

The level of spying, reporting and silencing going on is getting out of control.

SpitefulBreasts · 18/06/2019 06:53

Stopthisnow
Great post and thank you.
You've cleared up a lot of confusion for me.

DecomposingComposers · 18/06/2019 06:53

Females don’t pose the same risk to each other as males do to females, regardless of what they look like, most females who claim/believe they are men would likely prefer to use the men’s or third spaces anyway, but that has nothing to do with the issue of naming males as males/men, which is what this thread is about.

But one argument for stopping trans women from using female spaces is that many women would not use them if they thought a male might be there. How is that not still the case with regards trans men?

As a PP pointed out, some women have walked out when they see them in the toilet because they are butch looking so trans men will have the same effect. Yet no one will consider this.

Secondly most females who claim/believe they are men would likely prefer to use the men’s or third spaces - well they shouldn't be using the men's spaces should they? Why use this as a solution? "Oh it's fine. They won't come in the ladies anyway. They'll go in the men's" That can't be ok can it? Because you're meant to use the space of your sex, not your gender.

So trans men should be using the ladies according to the arguments on here. Even if their presence deters women from using those spaces?

SpitefulBreasts · 18/06/2019 07:21

Wilful misunderstandings, that's the expression I've been searching for.
Obfuscation, that's another word, slippery little things, words.
I've never known FWR without the restricted guidelines so I can't say that it should return to pre restricted days.
I'm not all that bothered about how others refer to men that want to present as women. I personally don't want to use trans woman, because, woman face is not a costume. Human beings cannot change sex so I'm never going to agree that to lie. As for being mean or spiteful, just look at where being kind has got the female sex.

happydappy2 · 18/06/2019 07:23

The question of which facilitates transmen should use is a complete derail-pls start a separate thread if ppl wish to discuss that.

OP posts:
PurpleCrowbar · 18/06/2019 07:25

Er...obviously.

Women who identify as trans are perfectly entitled to use spaces for women.

& I think you'll find there's widespread support here for separate spaces for anyone who would prefer not to share with others of their own sex.

'What about the (largely mythical) passing transman?!' really, really isn't the amazing gotcha it's sometimes presented as.

2BthatUnnoticed · 18/06/2019 07:25

No. The transmen I know all use the men’s because (a) they are more comfortable there and (b) they know women may feel afraid of them (why TM can respect this but most TW cannot, I don’t know).

If TM did need to use the ladies? Their voices don’t sound like men’s so if they explain they are TM, women will realise they are female and relax.

Being female, TM do not pose a threat to men and men do not feel afraid of them. The situations are in no way equivalent.

Just change the men’s to gender neutral so we have (a) women’s loos (b) gender neutral. Done.

PurpleCrowbar · 18/06/2019 07:26

Sorry happy - the snarky 'Er...obvously' wasn't addressed to you! Blush

2BthatUnnoticed · 18/06/2019 07:29

Sorry my post is responding to Decomposing - agree with OP that this is a complete derail.

TM only seem to be brought up by TRAs to justify calling us “menstruators” or as a bathroom “gotcha” (which isn’t one. At all.)

EggWrap · 18/06/2019 07:30

I've only had a chance to scan the thread, I'm confused.....have the rules changed now?
I was deleted for saying a man can't put on a dress and become a woman, is this fact of biology still an illegal statement on mumsnet??

DecomposingComposers · 18/06/2019 07:39

2BthatUnnoticed

Do you not see the hypocrisy in your answer though? You are saying that it's fine for TM to use the men's toilet because that's where they feel most comfortable.

So can trans women use the ladies then, if that's where they feel most comfortable?

If TM did need to use the ladies? Their voices don’t sound like men’s so if they explain they are TM, women will realise they are female and relax.

And a PP said that women have left the toilets on seeing her in there so it's not about speaking to someone it's about a first glance making someone uncomfortable enough to leave.

happydappy2 · 18/06/2019 07:42

Derail........

OP posts:
PurpleCrowbar · 18/06/2019 07:47

Decomp - I'm 6' & quite broad shouldered. I tend to wear jeans & ancient rock band t-shirts.

If I had a quid for every time I've clocked another woman do the 'bloke?! Oh no - scruffy big woman' double take, I could buy us ALL the pint that was being suggested yesterday.

At the 'first glance' that you're suggesting, I look a damn sight more like a man than, I have to say, any transman I've ever met.

No one is calling for segregation of toilets on the basis of whether people look a bit ambiguous at 'first glance'. Not least because women are extremely capable at detecting sex correctly at 'second' glance, microseconds after the first one.

So yep, transmen in the women's bathroom = not an issue.

DecomposingComposers · 18/06/2019 07:53

Well according to a PP some women don't take a second glance - they just leave.

And I think a lot of women would have a problem sharing the space with a person that looked very obviously like a man. So it's ok for those women to be excluded from women's spaces then is it?

If so, can we drop the argument that the inclusion of trans women will exclude many women who don't want to be in a toilet or changing room with someone who looks male?

LimeKiwi · 18/06/2019 07:57

No, I won't be silenced for having a different opinion to you. Who are you to tell another woman to "Give it up"?

Same, I'm glad other people see it now too.

Ereshkigal · 18/06/2019 07:57

What does this extremely original talking point have to do with the OP? This thread is about language. Not toilets.

LimeKiwi · 18/06/2019 07:59

Derail........
No, that would be when people post stuff like this! Can't you see that?! What did Decomposer put that was a derail?

happydappy2 · 18/06/2019 08:00

purple & 2B Flowers

OP posts:
2BthatUnnoticed · 18/06/2019 08:00

Decomposing male-born people commit 90% of all murders and 98% of all rape and sexual assault. There is no evidence that transitioning reduces offending.

So the two situations are in no way equivalent.

Policy is not about people “feeling comfortable,” it is about reducing risks.

As OP said, start your own thread if you feel the need. Derail over/

Ereshkigal · 18/06/2019 08:01

What did Decomposer put that was a derail

It's a very obvious derail.

2BthatUnnoticed · 18/06/2019 08:02

Happy Flowers you have the patience of a saint.

DecomposingComposers · 18/06/2019 08:02

What does this extremely original talking point have to do with the OP? This thread is about language. Not toilets

I don't know. The issue of toilets was introduced I presume because the conversation moved on? I was commenting on their posts.

happydappy2 · 18/06/2019 08:06

I’m just waiting for someone to accuse me of policing speech Wink

OP posts:
DecomposingComposers · 18/06/2019 08:12

It was FlyingOink who started posting about toilets and their presence making some women leave the toilets when they saw them in there so maybe ask them why the brought it up?

Policy is not about people “feeling comfortable,” it is about reducing risks.

I've seen both arguments used plenty of times on this board. It's about safeguarding and privacy/dignity.

If it isn't about privacy and ensuring that women aren't deterred by the presence of a male looking person then that's fine. That argument can stop being made then can't it? If however that is a consideration, then it also needs to apply to trans men too doesn't it?

I'm not getting the argument that trans men feel more comfortable using the men's when we are repeatedly told that this isn't about feelings, it's about biological reality. So on that basis trans men shouldn't use the men's regardless of how they feel, should they?

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