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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Use of trans identified male as opposed to transwoman No2.

999 replies

happydappy2 · 16/06/2019 22:21

MNHQ There has been much written recently about how the controlling of the words we use, is very misleading. Many women reject the word transwoman as it can be misunderstood. In light of this, would you reconsider yr guidelines that Trans Identified Male can not be used? It would seem a more factually accurate description of a human male who presents in a stereotypically female way. Thank you.

OP posts:
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DecomposingComposers · 17/06/2019 22:25

I'm not sure that Mumsnet, or anyone else, is looking to benefit.

I should think Mumsnet are concerned about absolute bedlam breaking out on the threads with the constant report and counter report with all the parties complaining about offensive terms being used.

If that is the atmosphere that you are calling for, then it's up to you I guess.

LimeKiwi · 17/06/2019 22:25

OK, if my post is still there regarding the actual conversation I had with my teen a few months back I apologise as I can't see it - why has it been deleted if so?
It wasn't meant to be goady. Someone said they had a conversation with their teen so I relayed mine that I had with my 15 year old a while back.
If mine's gone, why? It was a genuine exchange.

DecomposingComposers · 17/06/2019 22:28

WeeBisom

So your argument against using transwoman is that trans women don't accept it. Instead you would like to see the term trans identified male used - which causes way more upset and offence than transwoman.

That seems a bit weird to me. Why choose to use an even more offensive term in an attempt to avoid a slightly offensive word?

MajesticWhine · 17/06/2019 22:30

If I understand it correctly mumsnet banned certain terms not to benefit certain people or harm others, but to reduce the use of goady terms and enable a debate that causes less offence to everyone.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 17/06/2019 22:34

Sorry just looked at an earlier post and thought i should clarify that i meant that ‘guy’ seems to be used in a very sex neutral way

I thought it was clear as i typed it straight after saying guy....but obviously it wasnt clear at all

WeeBisom · 17/06/2019 22:34

DecomposingComposers: well, note that I myself never gave an opinion about which word to use. I just pointed out that EarlyWalker's compromise won't work because her suggested term is considered to be transphobic, and is against current press guidelines. The current lingo is 'trans woman', which does directly imply they are a kind of women. And the current debate is about whether it's right to use a term which suggests these individuals are a subset of women. I'm just trying to engage with the argument.

Justhadathought · 17/06/2019 22:34

That seems a bit weird to me. Why choose to use an even more offensive term in an attempt to avoid a slightly offensive word?

Ever considered that you are part of the problem? You are destroying that which you claim to value - by your sheer bloody-mindedness and intractability.

Just crack on, though! All you are achieving is the exact opposite of that which you desire.

This is just an internet forum. Behave like that in real life, and you'll soon be shown the door. Fortunately, real life is what is most important; and you are losing he battle, inch by inch, and day by day.

LimeKiwi · 17/06/2019 22:34

MN HQ will surely see I have a 15 year old and have been posting here for years so it is more than likely a genuine comment.
If the comment is still there and I'm talking bollox I'll take it and shut up lol but I can't see it Grin

LimeKiwi · 17/06/2019 22:36

the comment that is

BatShite · 17/06/2019 22:39

LimeKiwi

It was deleted as it quoted Pams deleted post.

LimeKiwi · 17/06/2019 22:43

It was deleted as it quoted Pams deleted post
Ok fair enough Smile if you're deleted for posting a previously deleted thing though it says so in the deleted message.
As in "deleted for quoting a previously deleted post"

PurpleCrowbar · 17/06/2019 22:45

Decomp

I should think Mumsnet are concerned about absolute bedlam breaking out on the threads with the constant report and counter report with all the parties complaining about offensive terms being used.

I don't think it's 'bedlam'. It's a useful discussion.

I also think that it's blatantly obvious that the overall mood is that not 'all parties' are complaining about 'offensive terms being used'.

On the thread I'm reading, most people are all for people choosing their own language & MN being petitioned to rethink their guidelines.

A very vocal minority would like posters NOT to use certain terms.

Their concerns about other posters using those terms have been considered.

So again - do you want MN to allow everybody to use their chosen terms? Or would you rather MN continued to ban terms you disagree with?

BatShite · 17/06/2019 22:45

Yeah it usually says that, I think thats if they are deleted at the same time though? Yours was posted quite a bit after hers was deleted, plus it wasn't clear exactly that it was a quote rather than you saying the same kind of thing at the start? Probably was dealt with by 2 different mods so they didn't click it was quoting.

DecomposingComposers · 17/06/2019 22:48

Justhadathought

So it's all my fault because I am responding to a new post, is that right?

So no one is allowed to respond to more than how many posts?

LangCleg · 17/06/2019 22:51

I use chaps in a sex-neutral way. Oops. Seems to unite both sides of the tough crowd!

Still yay.

LangCleg · 17/06/2019 22:52

most people are all for people choosing their own language & MN being petitioned to rethink their guidelines

Me, me, that's me! I want that!

LimeKiwi · 17/06/2019 22:54

I use chaps in a sex-neutral way. Oops. Seems to unite both sides of the tough crowd!

So do I but again chaps comes down to context

PencilsInSpace · 17/06/2019 22:57

Looks like everybody agrees.

DecomposingComposers · 17/06/2019 22:58

PurpleCrowbar

I'm not talking about on this thread. I mean on future threads.

I would imagine MN have been trying to walk the fine line between maintaining civility and allowing freedom of speech.

And I don't want words banned that I disagree with. If MN choose to reinstate some words then I think they should reinstate all words and have no banned words at all.

stealthsquirrelnutkin · 17/06/2019 23:00

This thread and its predecessor have been illuminating. It hadn't occurred to me that the prospect of women using their own words to describe their own realities would unleash torrents of relentless antipathy. I hadn't realised how dangerous some people must feel it is to allow women free speech. Sometimes I forget about history, scold's bridles, the stocks for sluts and uppity wenches etc.

After ploughing through both threads I am even more firmly convinced of the importance of allowing women to formulate their own thoughts clearly using their own words.

The standard mumsnet rules for AIBU and the rest of the website should be reinstated, and I'd also like to see the magnificent feminists and long time site stalwarts who got banned for failure to comply with forced speech invited to return. Their contributions were valuable and they are sorely missed.

If a parliamentary committee can cope with hearing male bodied people described as such then why would a women and child oriented site like mumsnet continue to be cowed by the demands of anti-women activists?

So, that's a yes from me. Because (to reuse a brilliant simile) forced speech really is like rohypnol. It dulls our defences. It changes our inhibitions. It's meant to. We've had a lifetime’s experience learning to be alert to ‘him’ and relax to ‘her’. For good reason. This instinctive response keeps us safe. It’s not even a conscious thing. It’s like your hairs standing on end. Your subconscious brain is helping you not get eaten by the sabre tooth tiger that your eyes haven’t noticed yet.

While MAP perverts are being allowed free reign on twitter, at the same time as twitter's moderation algorithms permanently ban women for correctly sexing child rapists it is more important than ever that mumsnet remains a place where women can speak freely, raising feminist conciousness and inspiring each other to feats of resistance against the biggest threat to women and children in our lifetimes.

LimeKiwi · 17/06/2019 23:04

This thread and its predecessor have been illuminating. It hadn't occurred to me that the prospect of women using their own words to describe their own realities would unleash torrents of relentless antipathy

I agree, it seemingly works one way though

R0wantrees · 17/06/2019 23:08

While MAP perverts are being allowed free reign on twitter, at the same time as twitter's moderation algorithms permanently ban women for correctly sexing child rapists it is more important than ever that mumsnet remains a place where women can speak freely, raising feminist conciousness and inspiring each other to feats of resistance against the biggest threat to women and children in our lifetimes.

YY this is it for me too.
Its about Safeguarding & with the evidence of the systemic Safeguarding & Child Protection frameworks becoming more evident by the day, clear civilised language is vital.

OccasionalKite · 17/06/2019 23:09

Yes - what stealthsquirrelnutkin says upthread.

PurpleCrowbar · 17/06/2019 23:12

*PurpleCrowbar

I'm not talking about on this thread. I mean on future threads.

I would imagine MN have been trying to walk the fine line between maintaining civility and allowing freedom of speech.

And I don't want words banned that I disagree with. If MN choose to reinstate some words then I think they should reinstate all words and have no banned words at all.*

Thank you. I agree.

OccasionalKite · 17/06/2019 23:13

This bit in particular:
If a parliamentary committee can cope with hearing male bodied people described as such then why would a women and child oriented site like mumsnet continue to be cowed by the demands of anti-women activists?

I watched that video, and I'll try to find it again, for reference.

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