Use of trans identified male as opposed to transwoman No2.

[happydappy2]

MNHQ There has been much written recently about how the controlling of the words we use, is very misleading. Many women reject the word transwoman as it can be misunderstood. In light of this, would you reconsider yr guidelines that Trans Identified Male can not be used? It would seem a more factually accurate description of a human male who presents in a stereotypically female way. Thank you.

Language is important, as you all keep saying.

until it was pointed out on MN that it is defaulting to the male

Oh yes i fully agree!!!

I do use mate...but usually like ‘mmmaaaaattttte’

But yeah...can’t walk into a fucking restaurant without being a guy...even when its a table of females!!!

Language is important, as you all keep saying

Yeah

And language evolves, as you all keep saying

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer

Like I said, the faux wide eyed " no, chaps is just a generic term now. Doesn't mean men".

Since when have women been referred to as "chaps"? Since never. It is simply goady to say that.

Language is important, as you all keep saying.

But the first result is this...

Do you really think he was posting ‘chaps’ in a ‘gender neutral’ way? Given the attitude demonstrated towards us already? Or do you think it was to deliberately ruffle feathers?

In my friendship group there are a number of women who say ‘chaps’

My lived experience is not ‘goady’ thank you very much

Just because your friends dont say it ...

I suppose you are also going to say you have never been called ‘guy’ in a restaurant either

Oh, how silly of me.

When we were referred to as "chaps" we were being called leather trousers. Of course, that makes far more sense than you insinuating that we were men.

Why are you continuing to call us men?

Was just wondering the same, I'm really really not a male lol however much you think I am.
Fanny pics?
Although I'd probably be told it's the internet and anyone can have photoshopped or found that lol
and you really really don't want to see that lol

**
Civil debate please

Good luck with that, MichaelMumsnet.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer

What is the dictionary definition of "chaps"?

Very disingenuous to suggest that in any way it can be used to mean women.

We all know that that post was goady by the OP.

When we were referred to as "chaps" we were being called leather trousers. Of course, that makes far more sense than you insinuating that we were men

I'm a pair of leather trousers I don't know about anyone else lol

I can only imagine this topic has rattled some cages...... put in an awful lot of effort to confuse the conversation

Absolutley. Big time. Only if people validate the trans identity does it exist at all. Hence the desperation and need to control. It's not healthy.
The 'Emperor's New Clothes' is the perfect analogy.

And the thing they seem to be blind to is that the more they whine and wheedle, or attempt to manipulate and control - the worse it becomes. They are destroying the very thing they seek. It's inevitable, really.

LimeKiwi

Yep. I went for an internal pelvic ultrasound yesterday. They showed me the cyst on my left ovary and the multiple fibroids that I have which clearly makes me something of a medical marvel given that the MN jury have decided I am a man!

I do have the overwhelming feeling that in a different age, the posters who so desperately want to use the potentially offensive phrase, would be bosom-hoiking ,pinny-wearing, stout, Yorkshire women who excused their deliberate unpleasantness with, "I speak as I find".

It's strange how we have the urge to erroneously see beyond the screen isn't it?

In my friendship group there are a number of women who say ‘chaps’

Oh give over, in threads where you're repeatedly called a man if you disagree - you're going with my friendship group says women, we meant women as women call each other chaps all the time?

Can the three of you do me a favour

Check my post and see where I denied that the poster was calling you a man

Go on...have a good look

Ive no idea whether they were calling you a man or not...if youve looked at these boards you will have seen i quite frequently go off on a tangent i find interesting

Quite often only interesting to me

Just if your (general your) stance is they're always males then you surely can understand how that comes across?

Yes, that is many people's (mine included) exact stance. 'Transwomen' are always male. Always.

In fact

You will also see that I complained about being addressed by a ‘male’ term and that i agreed that posters being ‘accused’ of being men does happen on these threads

Very disingenuous to suggest that in any way it can be used to mean women

My friends are not your friends

Thank fuck

All of which is distracting from the major issue which is that where we draw the dividing line between who counts as a man and who counts as a woman has practical consequences. And we cannot discuss this dividing line if those who believe it should be drawn on the basis of biology rather than feelings are not allowed to reference biology when trying to argue their case.

Karen White should not have been placed in a women's prison because White is a biological male who retains his* penis, and who was on remand for rape.

How can I articulate that position if I am not allowed to refer to the fact that White is male?

*Again, following Justine Robert's reply in which she said that we would not be forced to use she/her pronouns for people found guilty of serious sexual crimes.

Thank fuck

That works both fucking ways

I do use 'chaps' all the time in mixed classrooms. Has yet to upset anyone.

Anyway - did we agree that majority are in favour of MN permitting the use of whichever contentious term (some prefer variants on 'transwoman', others prefer variations on 'trans identified male'?

& whilst there are posters who feel that other posters' language choices are not what they would use because , the general consensus seems to be that individuals should choose & use their own language responsibly?

we meant women as women call each other chaps all the time?

There is no we

And no women do not call each other chaps all the time...again, i didnt say that

Why can't you discuss who should or should not be able to use women's spaces whilst using the term trans woman?