Use of trans identified male as opposed to transwoman No2.

[happydappy2]

MNHQ There has been much written recently about how the controlling of the words we use, is very misleading. Many women reject the word transwoman as it can be misunderstood. In light of this, would you reconsider yr guidelines that Trans Identified Male can not be used? It would seem a more factually accurate description of a human male who presents in a stereotypically female way. Thank you.

But as we keep being told language is important

Yeah language is important. I can see someone just coming to the thread possibly misreading it so maybe it would be best to be clearer.

The thread title is very clear and unambiguous. I think it's disingenuous of posters to now say "oh no, pretty sure it means something entirely different to what it actually says".

There have been thousands of posts on the matter now, anyone on either thread will know what the title meant, so for you to claim you didn't..is a little silly. As I said, someone only just coming on could possibly read the title the wrong way, but after reading the actual OP, it would be clear.

The thread title calls for one term to be used instead of another. Don't accuse others of trying to police language whilst doing it yourselves.

Except thats not whats actually being asked for, as you well know, given you have been arguing against it for what..a hundred posts or so?!

It really seems you are just trying to be awkward here to be quite honest. But do carry on, I wouldn't want to be accused of 'shutting you down' for pointing out the obvious. Plus, anyone reading the thread can see you are now just being awkward for the sake of being awkward at this stage I don't see whats fun in attempted 'gotchas' and such but, clearly there is some fun in it given people do it. Each to their own I guess.

But yeah, reading the OP, rather than just the title, its clear that shes asking for the bans on words to be removed, not one banned word swapped for another. Which I would agree with. i would not agree with banning the word transwoman, and luckily noones asking for that

Read your title

This! I mean, what?!

This

Wow, another poster claiming to not know that the title means even though they have been arguing against it for thousands of posts. unbelievable.

Wow, another poster claiming to not know that the title means even though they have been arguing against it for thousands of posts. unbelievable

No, she just said she never said it and we're saying she clearly DID.
Surely that's the epitome of twisting stuff, it ain't us!

It really seems you are just trying to be awkward

Really, I'm being awkward when the OP has just denied using the phrase as opposed to when she has clearly used it in the thread title?

pencils is right happy

But no wonder it’s confusing

You've certainly never asked for transwoman as a word to be banned and youve agreed with many many posts saying that posters want MORE word..not more to be banned

No BernardBlacksWineIcelolly. You are wrong. Read the title of the thread. It doesn't say let's use this as well as this, it says use this instead of this.

Yes, for us people who for their own personal reasons don't wish to use TW. (Eye roll)

OK yeah, this thread is clearly going nowhere at all so bowing out now. The last 50 posts or so have been unbelievable tbh. 2 people who have been on both threads since the start, now claiming that its about banning the term transwoman, when they know it is not, and when the OP clarifies its about lifting banned terms, not adding them, yet still 'the title can be read differently!!11'. The state of this thread now..fairly sure it won't recover so..bye.

Could ask for the thread title to be amended

Personally i dont see the point of changing it but meh

BAT

Come back...

BAT

BAT

BAT

For the avoidance of doubt:

Does anyone on this thread think that the status quo should remain, and if so why?

I know that there have been various arguments that other terms may be found offensive or unclear etc, but has anyone argued that the ban shouldn't be lifted full stop?

BAAAAAATTTTTT

What does "as opposed to" mean then?

If I am so wrong in my understanding of that phrase explain to me how as opposed to means in addition to.

OK, once more for clarity for those at the back......I personally would prefer to use trans identified male as apposed to transwoman. I am not suggesting the term transwoman be banned. Yr joy at pouncing on a mistake is palpable & speaks more about you, than me.

Its taken ages for that mistake to be pounced on though

Absolutely ages

But fuck me are we rolling with it now

happy

I don't care how Pete Tong it goes.

I'm still yay.

Yr joy at pouncing on a mistake is palpable & speaks more about you, than me.

Really? Yeah, I think you jumping on people for pointing out the hypocrisy of your thread title while demanding that others don't police language speaks more about you than me.

Maybe an apology for jumping down my throat when it was indeed you that was wrong wouldn't go amiss either?

I would like to be allowed to use 'trans identified male' or 'male with a trans identity'.

I have no interest whatsoever in people being banned from using transwoman, trans woman, tw or any other similar term.

I don't like terf or cis but I would prefer that they were not banned so that we can discuss them properly, including with people who use them.

I believe the normal talk guidelines are sufficient.

Thank you for these threads, happy. They've been fucking awful but amongst all the shite I think all the important stuff has been said.

I would like to be allowed to use 'trans identified male' or 'male with a trans identity'.

I have no interest whatsoever in people being banned from using transwoman, trans woman, tw or any other similar term.

I don't like terf or cis but I would prefer that they were not banned so that we can discuss them properly, including with people who use them.

I believe the normal talk guidelines are sufficient.

Thank you for these threads, happy. They've been fucking awful but amongst all the shite I think all the important stuff has been said.

I agree with Pencils

MN is a forum populated by mostly women, mostly parents, all adults & I think context is always important.

Civil reasoned discussion is better assisted not by making a few terms forbidden but focussing on the whole site's rules & expectations (which have served it very well)

The phrase ‘We gave them an itch, they took a mile’ is often trotted out on here as to why you should be making no exceptions or effort with trans people anymore or to use the correct terminology.

Do you not think it could also apply to Mumsnet? I believe they lost advertisers over this, certainly have had their reputation tarnished and many people calling it a ‘hotbed of hate’. They’ve faced a huge backlash over allowing free speech and discussion on such a sensitive topic (and I applaud them immensely for that, despite not always agreeing with you)

But now that is not enough, you also want to take it a step further and be able to refer to trans individuals by names which you know are offensive. Which will inevitably change the dynamic of the discussions when you can smugly know you have reduced them to just men and invalidated their identity.

I agree so much with the way sue so eloquently put it previously, is this the hill you really want to die on?

I would like to use 'trans identified male' as opposed to 'transwoman'.

I will find work arounds if MN continue to ban it.

I don't mind at all if other posters want to use transwoman, or terf, or cis. No expectation from me that MN ban any of those.

I thought the OP & subsequent discussion were perfectly clear. It's hard to see how anyone could, entirely in good faith, be perplexed.

We gave them an itch,.

But now that is not enough, you also want to take it a step further and be able to refer to trans individuals by names which you know are offensive.

No. We wish to be able to factually and truthfully describe individuals.

reduced them to just men and invalidated their identity.

What does that actually mean? (To invalidate someone's indentity). It is not possible to identify out of your sex.

The phrase ‘We gave them an itch, they took a mile’

Sorry but that type made me smile lol

typo even

When I try to imagine what a poster might look like in real life.