Use of trans identified male as opposed to transwoman No2.

[happydappy2]

MNHQ There has been much written recently about how the controlling of the words we use, is very misleading. Many women reject the word transwoman as it can be misunderstood. In light of this, would you reconsider yr guidelines that Trans Identified Male can not be used? It would seem a more factually accurate description of a human male who presents in a stereotypically female way. Thank you.

See, you're moving the goalposts as you never said that originally.
You never mentioned safeguarding

Safeguarding is the point of the context.

I wrote, for clarity & with (yet another) request that some posters stop misrepresenting:

R0wantrees Mon 17-Jun-19 09:31:31
I was just reflecting on names some are used by both males & females.

So a hypothetical everyday (civilised) conversation about two Alex Smith's & Safeguarding might go (to use earlywalker's definition)

"I was shocked to see Alex Smith applying for the female rape counsellor's role in our organisation"

"Why, she's great I worked with her last year"

"No not that Alex Smith, she's a woman. The other Alex Smith who is a male who believes he's a woman"

I may use the term "male woman" from now on.

I like this but I'm still going to use the unwieldy but clear "man who identifies as a woman"

Did we cross post there as you'll see I already clarified just before your post

Can I ask you a straight question, Lime?

Maria MacLachlan experienced the attack on her as being carried out by a man (obviously male bodied, male voiced, much bigger than her, dressed in dark gender neutral clothing that could be worn by either sex).

The judge tried to insist that Maria use female pronouns, and when Maria couldn't or wouldn't do this, stated that this was a factor in giving a relatively lenient sentence.

Do you think the judge was right to do this?

And we're back to insinuating people with differing viewpoints are male

Where?

Did we cross post there as you'll see I already clarified just before your post

I think you mean "admitted you were wrong"

LimeKiwi thank you apologising.

You are clearly very invested in this thread.

Might I respectfully ask that you read & reflect on posts before knee jerk reacting?

Meaningful discussion always benefits from calm rather than emotion-led reactions.

(yes X post)

I think you mean "admitted you were wrong"

Yes, that's what I said which is why I posted what I did.

Where?
Really?

limekiwi For the 2nd time now, why do you feel you need to be in control of words other people use? Why not let other people have their own preferences?

Why are you trying to police our language?

Yes...really

I assumed someone had done it again in the last few posts but i cant see it

I like to take posters at face value But im getting very very suspicious
Identifying patterned behaviour again Rufus?

There you go Rufus
As you didn't see it
(For those new to the thread the old one was accusing people of being male and when some said hang on a minute, I'm not, it changed to that's not happening, we meant male identified pattern behaviour.)
Which presumably means some women aren't posting womenly enough

limekiwi For the 2nd time now, why do you feel you need to be in control of words other people use? Why not let other people have their own preferences?
Why are you trying to police our language?

To repost an observation I made on Saturday on the first thread & again yesterday:

I find myself wondering why would anyone want to prevent women discussing how language is important in order to recognise & combat male violence against women & children.

That the attempted prevention of discussion is on the Feminism & Women's Rights board of a perenting website is telling.

Im sure I'm not the only one still wondering why some posters might be so very committed to this!

You need to reread my post lime

Was not talking about you or decomposing or early or anyone else

And one assumes that patterned behaviour as R0 called it isnt sex specific

And one assumes that patterned behaviour as R0 called it isnt sex specific

As Ive said explicitly Rufus at 08:43

"Recognising control patterns is an important part of protecting women against abusive violent men.

Of course some control patterns eg narcissitic control & manipulation can be demonstrated by members of both sexes.

MN has a long history of women supporting others to recognise parental abuse ('But We Took You to Country Houses' etc)

Women who have been in abusive relationships (eg coercive control/narcisstic control patterns etc) recognise patterns.

Recognising how gaslightling is done is important."

limekiwi For the 2nd time now, why do you feel you need to be in control of words other people use? Why not let other people have their own preferences? Why are you trying to police our language?

I'm not, if you scroll back a bit I actually said to one saying they wouldn't use - you do you. So not policing really, is it

Given that you will have to explain to some people, whichever term is used, I think we should not use a term that the people described by it find offensive.

Offending someone is unavoidable when two sides hold opposite views of what's offensive. The difference between these sides is that one side is saying "Some people might be offended if you use the term Trans Identified Male so MNHQ have to ban it." Whilst the other side are saying "I can cope with feeling offended by whatever language is thrown at me and believe MNHQ should trust us to use whatever terms we feel best describe what we want to say as long as we're sticking to general talk guidelines"

One side wants to ban free speech, the other wants to embrace it.

Was not talking about you or decomposing or early or anyone else

Maybe you weren't, will take your word for it, but the male pattern behaviour post I was referring to that who answered straight after to you definitely was.

But they are male. That's the point. Happy to call them "males who identify as women" if you prefer though. Have we found a solution? Praise be

Yes, it's tedious, but often the long hand version is best and most descriptive.

aybe you weren't, will take your word for it

I fucking highlighted the fucking post i was referring to!

I couldnt have made it any fucking easier

Recognising how gaslightling is done is important."

Psycology Today article by Stephanie A. Sarkis Ph.D.

'11 Warning Signs of Gaslighting
Gaslighting is a manipulation tactic used to gain power. And it works too well.'

(extract)
"In my book Gaslighting: Recognize Manipulative and Emotionally Abusive People - and Break Free I detail how gaslighters typically use the following techniques:

1. They tell blatant lies.

You know it's an outright lie. Yet they are telling you this lie with a straight face.

1. They deny they ever said something, even though you have proof.

1. They use what is near and dear to you as ammunition.

1. They wear you down over time.

This is one of the insidious things about gaslighting—it is done gradually, over time. A lie here, a lie there, a snide comment every so often...and then it starts ramping up. Even the brightest, most self-aware people can be sucked into gaslighting—it is that effective. It's the "frog in the frying pan" analogy: The heat is turned up slowly, so the frog never realizes what's happening to it.

1. Their actions do not match their words.

When dealing with a person or entity that gaslights, look at what they are doing rather than what they are saying. What they are saying means nothing; it is just talk. What they are doing is the issue.

1. They throw in positive reinforcement to confuse you.

1. They know confusion weakens people.

Gaslighters know that people like having a sense of stability and normalcy. Their goal is to uproot this and make you constantly question everything.

1. They project.

They are a drug user or a cheater, yet they are constantly accusing you of that. This is done so often that you start trying to defend yourself, and are distracted from the gaslighter's own behavior.

1. They try to align people against you.

Gaslighters are masters at manipulating and finding the people they know will stand by them no matter what—and they use these people against you. They will make comments such as, "This person knows that you're not right," or "This person knows you're useless too." Keep in mind it does not mean that these people actually said these things. A gaslighter is a constant liar. When the gaslighter uses this tactic it makes you feel like you don't know who to trust or turn to—and that leads you right back to the gaslighter. And that's exactly what they want: Isolation gives them more control.

10. They tell you or others that you are crazy.

This is one of the most effective tools of the gaslighter, because it's dismissive. The gaslighter knows if they question your sanity, people will not believe you when you tell them the gaslighter is abusive or out-of-control. It's a master technique.

11. They tell you everyone else is a liar.

The more you are aware of these techniques, the quicker you can identify them and avoid falling into the gaslighter's trap. "

www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/here-there-and-everywhere/201701/11-warning-signs-gaslighting

I've edited the examples so as not to post many paras in recognition that some find too much information cause for complaint

I'm off to make some scones........butter, then jam, then clotted cream!

.......butter, then jam, then clotted cream!

Obviously! Because that's the right way to do it