Use of trans identified male as opposed to transwoman.

[happydappy2]

MNHQ There has been much written recently about how the controlling of the words we use, is very misleading. Many women reject the word transwoman as it can be misunderstood. In light of this, would you reconsider yr guidelines that Trans Identified Male can not be used? It would seem a more factually accurate description of a human male who presents in a stereotypically female way. Thank you.

Who are we? Women. I have absolutely no difficulty in defining who belongs to womanhood. Every woman's experience is different, sure, but none of our experiences involve being a man.

This.

but R0wantrees said only tra had a issue with language. so you must be ok with cis woman?

No Bespin you are misrepresenting what I said which was that only TRAs lobbied to have certain words forbidden on the site.

That's different.

Its a shame you continue with these patterns.
It really doesnt encourage civilised discussion.

I think it’s best not to police any words on either side, but I understand why Mumsnet decided otherwise.

are you insinuating that some mumsnet posters are men? I thought that was found upon lol

I am identifying male-pattern control behaviour.

Its important to do so.

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3452784-Coercive-Control-a-need-for-better-awareness

(See Dr Julia Long for explanation)

It's always interesting to see how some women can't accept that not all women think exactly the same.

Apparently women can't have different viewpoints or opinions. Any woman who thinks differently can't exist and must therefore be a man.

That's quite an interesting thought process - how have you reached the conclusion that all women think the same? Has there been research into this?

Rowan ignoring that you’re probably calling me a man for a moment.

How does using ‘transwoman’ stop you identifying the person as biologically Male?

There is no justification for refusing to use it apart from spite.

There really is. I don't want to prop up an ideology I see as false and harmful. They are not any kind of women. It's gaslighting. Many people think a "transwoman" is a biological woman transitioning as a man. It's obfuscation.

R0wantrees

if you want to call me a man you are quite within your rights to do so. it may have a consequence as its against mumsnets rules. but all the insinuation is a bit poor.

policing language is a difficult thing to do as there are no limits only the consequences of the use of that language

So many posters have an issue with using transwoman.

Why are none of you also calling for transman to be banned too?

What words you use to describe a transman?

But there are other words that MNHQ have also banned because the FWR board requested it. So are you also calling for those words to be allowed too?

Yes. As you'd know perfectly well if you read any of the feedback threads when the rules were introduced.

I have not called any individuals on the thread men.

I am now interested to observe the patterns that some posters are demonstrating.

I don't understand Lang. Are you saying that it's ok for those words to also be used then?

A thread of 105 posts mainly saying that they will not use this word, with not one logical explanation as to why. So yes, I do believe it is out of spite.

I've read many posts here with perfectly logical explanations. So give it up.

Fascinating stuff patterned behaviours.

but none of us pay for this site or own it we are here at there expense and they make the rules as they want there business to continue to make money. allowing this site to be a free for all would end there business really quickly.

to be honest I'm often impressed at the speed they act for a large site and I think they are trying to walk a very fine line.

I have not called any individuals on the thread men.

I wonder what you meant by this then?

Its always interesting to observe males attempting to disrupt women discussing the impact of not being able to correctly identify some males.

I fucking hate cis and terf is used as a slur, but I believe in free speech and have never called for those terms to be banned here.

It seemed to me at the time the new rules for FWR were brought in that banning cis and terf was a sop to GC posters in light of the linguistic binds being put on them.

Forced teaming is an interesting one to observe.

I just say trans person. I'm never going to say transwoman because it's not possible to change sex. There's a reason it's called 'gender reassignment' and not 'sex change'. A man cannot become a woman.

I'm passionately GC and I think this thread is unnecessarily bitchy and probably one of the more transphobic threads I've seen on here.

Transwoman literally has "not actually a woman but a man who transitioned or is transitioning as best as they can" in the word. That's what trans MEANS in this context. Transwomen are also not fighting to retain the term anyway, which makes this thread even more mean-spirited. They would far rather being called "women", which is where the GC position comes in anyway.

There is nothing wrong with people using a term that correctly indicates their "I'm not one thing but I reject the other" status. Surely as gender critical women this is preferable to men claiming they are literal women?

In this country there is a small number of transwomen who are legally recognised as women. As people we need to defend their rights. Many people, myself included, believe that retaining the GRC as it stands, is one of the best ways to protect both women AND transwomen from the abuses going on in the highly misogynist transactivist

Its always interesting to observe males attempting to disrupt women discussing the impact of not being able to correctly identify some males.

Generally speaking, isn't it just?! Remarkably insistent, consistent and persistent, to coin a phrase from somewhere or other, I can't remember where.

Again generally speaking, I find it equally interesting to observe which feminist threads and topics are viewed as boundary violation opportunities, and which are not. Wanking at work, for example, is not - even though it is a topic all about boundary violation.

How odd.

They are not any kind of women. It's gaslighting. Many people think a "transwoman" is a biological woman transitioning as a man. It's obfuscation.

This is the bit I don’t get. Your reason for not using transwoman is you think people might not understand what it is? On MN when there’s hundreds of threads? I’ve never seen someone question what a transwoman is. I also don’t think that saying that Mn’ers aren’t clever enough to work it out is insulting.

You absolutely love putting the dictionary definition of a woman on every thread. I’m sure if someone doesn’t understand it’s not difficult to link to the dictionary.

Except I want them to police the use of “cis”. I am much more bothered about being called a ciswoman than I am about using “transwoman”.

I think this is the crux of the 'naming' issue.
I do not want to be labelled in anyway, shape or form, that links me to constructs relating to gender.
Trans people do no want to be labelled in anyway, shape or form, that links them to their sex.

I can empathise with this strength of emotion around labels (because I share it) and why they are fighting hard to reject what doesn't work for them.

I passionately believe that eradicating sex based distinction is dangerous for women. I also believe that distinguishing between males and females in all instances is damaging and leads to opportunities to discriminate.

I use trans person/ people to respect the desire to not be linked to their sex. However, when their sex is relevant to the point I am making, I use natal male/female trans person or, if relevant, male bodied/female bodied trans person.

R0wantrees

Totally fascinating stuff how people exhibit behaviours, like we all do and then people attribute a gender to them based on samples and then don't allow anyone to exhibit them who is not that gender.

I find the use of boundary violation fascinating as it indicates that there are boundaries to your feminism and does not take into acount intersectional feminism which seeks to break down such boundaries, and include all woman.