Use of trans identified male as opposed to transwoman.

[happydappy2]

MNHQ There has been much written recently about how the controlling of the words we use, is very misleading. Many women reject the word transwoman as it can be misunderstood. In light of this, would you reconsider yr guidelines that Trans Identified Male can not be used? It would seem a more factually accurate description of a human male who presents in a stereotypically female way. Thank you.

By explaining what you think the risks are, why you object etc etc.

But you can’t describe the risks if you can’t say that those risks come from the fact that they are men.

SuePerbly

I wholeheartedly agree. Well said.

Maybe a better question is, how does refusing to call TWs trans women, gain support for the real, important concerns that natal women have.

Because it makes it clear that transwomen are male. Outside the GC/TRA bubble a transwomen is either a women who is trans, or in more knowledgable people a male transexual who has had penis and testicles removed.

When people are asked in plain language if they support males who identify as female being treated as women the vast majority (80%+) are against this.

Clarity of language is more important than being "nice".

Yes. They may be offensive, but no-one has a right to not be offended.

Fair enough, but I can totally see it descending into "don't call me cs "don't call me t*m" arguments like somebody posted upthread it would and I completely agree with that and can see it happening.

But you can’t describe the risks if you can’t say that those risks come from the fact that they are men.

There is quite a difference between having a reasoned discussion and explaining your point of view and merely shouting "you're a man and I refuse to call you anything but a man".

I have a question, if other media outlets can say trans identified Male, then why shouldn’t We be able to say that here on Mumsnet?

Yes this is a very good question. Not only media outlets, the House of Commons has accepted this descriptor. Karen Ingala Smith was not flung into the gutter by HoC security or arrested or anything when she gave evidence.

The popular narrative assumes that either we are coming from a place of ignorance ('if you make a mistake, just apologise and move on') or a place of deliberate malice ('DIAF T**F').

In fact we're coming from a position of simply needing clear language to describe what's happening to the rights and wellbeing of women and children.

No malice, no ignorance, just a commitment to women and children's rights, and to naming reality where it matters.

I’d be quite happy to ignore people using the terms “cis” and “terf” if it meant we could speak the truth.

Also those terms have been so over-used now (like the term “transphobia”) that they have lost all meaning and impact.

Why does it make any difference explaining your objections if you reference trans women or trans indentifying male?

To paraphrase part of this excellent piece

uncommongroundmedia.com/banned-from-medium-pronouns-are-rohypnol/

Transwomen should be allowed in female spaces.

Vs

Men should be allowed in female spaces.

See the difference?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine

How many people, outside of the bubble, do you think would understand what a trans indentifying man is?

merely shouting "you're a man and I refuse to call you anything but a man".

Who is saying that?

So you'd want T*f to make a re-appearance on the board then and cs?

RTFT

So all this talk about you want to call trans women, what do you want to call trans men?

Will you be insisting on calling them women?

How many people, outside of the bubble, do you think would understand what a trans indentifying man is?

Let's keep it simple then. Just "man". After all trans-identifying doesn't have any real meaning.

Who is saying that?

Errrrr...... it's literally ON the thread and not far away as well.
Repeatedly saying they're male and calling them trans women apparently confuses people too much as it makes them think they're women.

Here's just one a few posts back
Because it makes it clear that transwomen are male

There's loads more though.

Will you be insisting on calling them women?

Of course. "Transmen" are women and "transwomen" are men. It's a simple statement of fact.

Will you be insisting on calling them women?

Of course.

FamilyOfAliens

Err, all of the posters saying we must be allowed to call trans women what they are - men???

merely shouting "you're a man and I refuse to call you anything but a man".

Nobody is shouting. Some people are simply making a simple factual statement.

This thread is filling up fast so if there are any lurkers who haven't said what they think, now's the time. You don't have to involve yourself in the shifest you can just vote yay or nay.

Here's just one a few posts back
Because it makes it clear that transwomen are male

Ok, so no one actually shouting “you’re a man and I refuse to call you anything but a man” then.

Nobody is shouting.

Oh I see, it's the word shouting that you have the problem with?

"transwomen" are men. It's a simple statement of fact

And another one for the "Who's saying that" brigade

Oops, bold fail

Its like animal farm with the sheep bleating "four legs good, two legs bad" on this thread.

There are far better Orwell analogies for what's going on here.

Oh I see, it's the word shouting that you have the problem with?

I know, it's unbelievable lol