Use of trans identified male as opposed to transwoman.

[happydappy2]

MNHQ There has been much written recently about how the controlling of the words we use, is very misleading. Many women reject the word transwoman as it can be misunderstood. In light of this, would you reconsider yr guidelines that Trans Identified Male can not be used? It would seem a more factually accurate description of a human male who presents in a stereotypically female way. Thank you.

Anything, I repeat anything, to stop the discussion being about the OP:

Should feminists be allowed to use the terms they see fit and should genderists also be allowed to use the terms they see fit?

Why is this thread such a threat that it requires this amount of work to keep the discussion off topic?

Lang Most threads go off topic into other conversations. Why is it now you’re so desperate to stop us talking?

Lang another yay from me.

Just posting to say two things:

1. that I agree with the OP is so far as being firmly in favour of not using the term transwomen, as it can be misunderstood. Trans identified Male is much more accurate language.
2. I googled it. It is actually "Fuck off" and not "Fuck of", so not a two letter word. I hope you all have a nice Sunday.

Oh for goodness sake, please stop banging on and on about how you've been accused of being men... I haven't seen any direct accusation. Many pages back there was an observation that your patterns of behaviour did not seem to align with that which might usually be expected when women communicate amongst themselves. So what?! It's the internet, no-one knows who anyone is unless they've met in person. There was no accusation, no one called anyone a man, and yet you have continued on for pages and pages, post after post, in a way that I can now only assume is a deliberate attempt to derail the thread.

So, it seems that everyone on the thread so far agrees that the ban on certain words should be lifted? Recently I read the article by Dr Em on how brain damage from a car accident had affected her. It made me realise the impact of the special talk guidelines for FWR is that it excludes or disadvantages many people with cognitive impairments, chemo-brain, ASDs, extreme tiredness etc etc. The mental effort of overcoming the cognitive dissonance, coupled with fear of making a mistake and being banned from MN, which for many is a lifeline of support, is an extremely effective barrier to preventing many people from engaging in the debate.

Beupstanding as a feminist I will call out sexism as and when I see it. I’m sorry you don’t feel stereotyping and sexism is a cause worth standing up for, we will agree to disagree.

Dear @DecomposingComposers. You compare using the N-word to using the term "trans identified male'. It cannot be compared. Some of the people who were very fond of using the N-word also lynched black people or looked the other way when black people were abused. Women who use the term "trans identified male' have not been violent towards trans identified males. Au contraire we have quite a few trans identified males in our prisons who have committed violent crimes against women. As the transpopulation is normally considered to be 1% of the population, but is more than 1% of the prison population and as: "Fair Play for Women examined individual prison inspection reports and concluded that 41% of transgender women in prison are convicted sex offenders. Its claim was reported by several news outlets. If more than 40% of trans prisoners were sex offenders, that would be disproportionately high.
According to the most recent data, 19% of all prisoners are serving time for a sexual offence." according to www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42221629, I cannot see how the trans identified males can get to play the victim card.

Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe the data you’re referring to stated there was 125 transgender people in prison. Are you saying that is far more than 1% of the prison population? Because I believe the prison population sits at around 80,000.

That data also related to individuals serving a longer prison sentence, so the usual prison sentences such as shoplifting, tv licence etc were not counted.

Once more, those people did not hold a GRC and were self identified.

The data you referred to merely means that around 60 Male sex offenders claimed to be transgender and does not really hold any weight within these discussions.

I’m not saying there’s no risk to woman by any means, I just don’t think manipulation of statistics to suit your point is ‘fair play’

Transwomen should not be on the female estate. But I’ll address the OP.

I’m brown (my skin). I’m not a fan of the terms “non-white” or “poc.” My own community does not use these terms.

But I would NEVER pressure an online forum to ban those terms, on the grounds that they invalidate my identity or constitute “brownpersonphobia” or something. How ridiculous.

It is not about me. It is about the people on that forum communicating with each other. Those terms are useful and descriptive - not derogatory. Not hateful.

Banning trans~identified male is about as non-sensical as banning “person of colour” would be (cf banning trany and paki).

Some people are brown. Some people are male. Some terms are annoying (but useful to those using them). Get over it.

(“get over it” addressed to myself and TRAs, not to people posting here!)

I'm comparing using the N word to using any other term that has been banned because it has been deemed offensive.

If you go out of your way to use a term known to offend people then yes, I think you are being deliberately provacative.

However, what I meant was separating the boards wasn’t a bad idea so that more woman can get back involved with feminism if they don’t want to see trans threads all the time

There are plenty of other threads on this board; it is not compulsory to view the ones that you know are going to be about trans issues. Anyone can create a thread.

Am not arsed about having to use transwoman. However I have found that in day to day life, the huge majority of people think a transwoman is a woman who is trans (what we would know as a transman) and this does cause some issues as people automatically think 'well why on earth shouldnt a female person use female areas, all they do is dress in a more masculine way' or something and it does make arguments look a little silly. Once you clarify its about male people fighting to be into female areas, people click on.

All in allthough, I hate how FWR is held to a much higher standard than all other areas on here, to the point where special mod rules have been placed on us due to the amount of males monitoring the site complaining about how we speak. basically, years back MN would have told these MRAs to fuck right off. Not sure why this time around its different.

but obviously there is a LOT more to feminism than trans people

Obviously, but clearly many see this issue as the single biggest threat to women and their integrity. a centring of men and their sexual impulses over the reality of female experience. Also the authoritarian/Orwellian nature of what is going on around the manipulation of language and the basic facts of reality is really very disturbing.

And that is before we even get on to the issue of children......

Can't see anything more important myself. That is why I like to see these threads, and why I don't bother much with the others.

But patterns are not guarantees. Not everyone will conform to those patterns.That is applying stereotypes. You don't post like a woman so therefore you are a man is a stereotype

What about starting a thread on the issue?

Anything, I repeat anything, to stop the discussion being about the OP

This side issue of communication styles has now completely derailed the thread. On some forums it would not have been allowed to continue for this long. The off topic posts would have been removed.

That is not to say that a new thread cannot be started which addresses the issue if people so wish.

Comparing the n-word (a racist slur) to “male” (an neutral descriptor) is ridiculous.

If our right to female spaces (rape crisis centres et al) was respected, we would not have to mention that TW are male. But it’s not. So we do.

(And for the record I’m not worried about TW so much as men simply identifying that way to access those spaces.)

Comparing the n-word (a racist slur) to “male” (an neutral descriptor) is ridiculous

These alarming false comparisons are quite common in the trans community, from what i've witnessed. And for all the talk of inter-sectionality there is some pretty racist thinking out there.

Makes you realise how many people don't even understand what racism is and the many forms it takes.

Justhadathought

Then people shouldn't bring it up, surely? It's done in an attempt to no platform people, a way to try and control who can and can't post on here. Obviously only the "right" type of woman is allowed to comment.

How about blaming the people who make the accusations for trying to derail the thread?

Comparing the n-word (a racist slur) to “male” (an neutral descriptor) is ridiculous.

Who has done that? I certainly haven't. I've compared using the N word to using terms banned on these boards. AFAIK male isn't a banned word, so definitely not what I was referring to.

“Trans-identified male” is banned. Which makes as much sense as banning “person of colour” (which I, who that term refers to, dislike). They are neutral descriptors.

Meanwhile the N and T words are slurs, not neutral. So banning them - yes I think everyone agrees on that.

You might think that trans identified male is neutral but clearly others don't.

I don't think that you can argue for some words to be allowed (because you are ok with them) whilst arguing that others are banned (because you find them insulting).

I'm guessing this is why we are where we are.

One side found one name insulting, the other side found others insulting so they banned them all.

Don't really see how you can now argue to allow the words one side is in favour of but uphold the ban on the other side.

Despite the repeated, persistent, belligerent attempts by a very small number of posters, to get this discussion off track....it is clear that the description trans woman, leads some people to think of a woman who is trans, therefore trans identified male, or male to female trans person is a more accurate description. As this description is used in other media outlets I see no reason it can’t be used here. This is what this thread is about.