Use of trans identified male as opposed to transwoman.

[happydappy2]

MNHQ There has been much written recently about how the controlling of the words we use, is very misleading. Many women reject the word transwoman as it can be misunderstood. In light of this, would you reconsider yr guidelines that Trans Identified Male can not be used? It would seem a more factually accurate description of a human male who presents in a stereotypically female way. Thank you.

Imo, people are entitled to ask that certain words are not used to describe them.

Except when any demand to use a specific term is based on a lie and demands the gaslighting of other parties. Such a demand is coercive control.

I, for one, will never submit to such controlling and abusive behaviour.

JackyHolyoake

What specific term are you being demanded to use?

Such a demand is coercive control
No it is not.
I’m very interested to hear where your figures came from though.

Where are your figures from?

From here [read the section about autogynephilia]:

4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/

further extract from previous article:

"How Does Gaslighting Unfold?
As Dr. Robin Stern notes in her book, The Gaslight Effect:

“The Gaslight Effect results from a relationship between two people: a gaslighter, who needs to be right in order to preserve his own sense of self, and his sense of having power in the world; and a gaslightee, who allows the gaslighter to define {his or} her sense of reality because she idealizes him and seeks his approval.”

It is in the victim seeking validation and approval from the gaslighter that the danger begins to unfold. Gaslighting is essentially psychological warfare, causing a victim to habitually question himself or herself. It is employed as a power play to regain control over the victim’s psyche, sense of stability and sense of self." (continues)

Many feminists & wise women advise others to try just saying, 'no!' early in relationships with males & then observe what the response is.
Its for very good reasons.
The response is telling.

What specific term are you being demanded to use?

The TW term.

Its amazing how the above 2 posters have so much time on their hands, to continually argue a clear losing battle. Language matters and we have made clear why.

I thought it was people wishing to live as the opposite sex which got us here?

Remind me what this actually means.

I actually have loads of time on my hands. I came back on MN because I’m recovering and bedbound so I’m here all week! Thanks for your concern.

I skimmed that but couldn’t find the figures you suggested?

I skimmed that but couldn’t find the figures you suggested?

Then I suggest you avoid skimming and read it carefully.

I’ve read the section you directed me to and it’s not there.

JackyHolyoake

But who is demanding that you use that term? You don't have to use that term.

I am often amazed about the amount of time people have to be on here and the fact they keep a library of cut and paste posts to respond to people. poeple are interesting arnt they

Its amazing how the above 2 posters have so much time on their hands, to continually argue a clear losing battle.

Yep. Actually have a chronic illness and am confined to barracks. Thanks for pointing out how dull my life is though.

I’ve read the section you directed me to and it’s not there.

Yes it is ... in this section:

"What do we know about autogynephilic gender dysphoria?"

The proof is not there I mean. It says this:

Autogynephilia is a probably rare, although it is difficult to know for certain. Among males who seek gender transition, however, it is common. In fact, in Western countries in recent years, including the United States, autogynephilia has accounted for at least 75% of cases of male-to-female transsexualism.

But where is the proof of this? A study?

I could write an article stating

100% of transwoman have blue eyes

Means f all without the proof?

article previously quoted concludes:

"A Note About Gaslighting on a Societal Level
Gaslighting can also take place in contexts outside of intimate relationships. It can occur in the workplace, in family units, in schools, in politics, in cults and in society as a whole. Society often gaslights women, for example, by depicting them as “overemotional,” “unhinged” or “crazy” when they dare to be anything less than demure and submissive or when they ‘dare’ to be enraged about the way they’re being treated.

Society also routinely gaslights survivors of abuse or assault by interrogating them about their behavior and minimizing the impact of what they experienced. Politicians, lawmakers and court systems can dismiss the impact of emotional abuse by allowing it to fall under the convenient umbrella of “nonviolence” while setting the perpetrators free to commit more crimes that will never be prosecuted under a court of law.

Those who benefit from an enormous amount of privilege can condemn those more marginalized when they speak out about social injustices like racism, sexism and ableism because it threatens their positions of power and control. They may call those who fight for justice “divisive” or “hateful” simply because they’re calling out bigotry, prejudice or unjust laws. Institutions may “gaslight” disadvantaged populations any time they wish to maintain that power by shifting the focus onto the behavior of marginalized people rather than examining what they can do to better support these populations.

There are many ways and contexts where we experience gaslighting and it is not just restricted to an abusive relationship. It is up to us as individuals and as a larger society to tackle gaslighting when we see it. Whether it is done with malicious intent or unwitting naiveté, gaslighting bears dangerous consequences when it goes unchallenged. Gaslighting has the power to shape and rewrite our reality. It’s about time we take back the narrative and hold fast to the truth – unapologetically owning our stories as we do so."
thoughtcatalog.com/shahida-arabi/2017/11/50-shades-of-gaslighting-the-disturbing-signs-an-abuser-is-twisting-your-reality/

I should also imagine that repeatedly insisting a woman is actually a man is gaslighting too.

I should also imagine that repeatedly insisting a woman is actually a man is gaslighting too.

Absolutely.

But where is the proof of this? A study?

If you read the whole section of that page that is about AGP you will learn that Blanchard, Bailey and others are psychologists who have studied AGP for decades.

You can also read the research of Dr Anne Lawrence, an AGP, on the Internet and that of Bailey etc.

I should also imagine that repeatedly insisting a woman is actually a man is gaslighting too.

And without accurate language, this could mean insisting a woman is a man, a man is a woman, a woman is a woman or a man is a man.

Score!

And without accurate language, this could mean insisting a woman is a man, a man is a woman, a woman is a woman or a man is a man.

And UK law is very helpful here in that it defines this as:

man = a male of any age
Woman = a female of any age

More feminist analysis relevent to the OP from Dr Julia Long:

(extract from speech)
"I'm sure that this really is old hat to most of us here but I thought it was worth just going back to some really fairly key principles. So when we're talking about sex we're talking about biological features. There's been reams written, the more nonsense that gets written, the more scholarship that needs to be written in order to try and counter it. But I haven't really entered into all of that, I'm just saying there are certain biological features which designate us either male or female, which mean that we are recognised as being either male or female in terms of things like anatomy, chromosomes etcetera. So when we're talking about sex we're talking about whether someone is male or female and so, if we're talking about whether someone is male, I think it's quite reasonable to refer to an adult human male as a man and an adult human female as a woman. I don't think that there is anything particularly controversial about that and I think history is kind of on my side because for god knows how many centuries or millennia that has kind of been the case.

Obviously when we're talking about gender we're talking about something quite different. We're talking about all the various kinds of social roles, the kinds of expectations, the kinds of treatment we might receive that is different according to whether you have a male body or a female body. We are expected to fulfill different social roles even now, all this time after the second wave women's movement there are still those expectations. We're certainly treated very differently.

And it's not just - it kind of annoys me when people talk about 'gender is a social construct' because I think that's very wishy-washy - it's not just about a social construct that affects men and affects women. It's about relations of power between women and men, obviously. We do not live in an equal world of power relations between women and men. So gender is about cementing and embedding and maintaining and reproducing the particular power relations between women and men.

Because if you think about it for more than a little while, and some people here have studied this for absolutely years, when we think about masculinity what we're thinking about are all the kind of behaviours, so-called attributes, maybe styles of clothing, certainly status, position, a sense of potential and possibility in terms of your power and what you can achieve. But what we're talking about is a whole collection of things which together form ritualised male domination. That is what masculinity is, it's not an individual gender identity trait, it is a set of different kinds of practices and codified behaviours and systems that ritualise male domination. By contrast, femininity is ritualised female subordination," (continues)

pastebin.com/nGwr3i4U

Understanding power dynamics is so important.
Being able to see & identify the use and abuse of power is vital for women & girls.

To go back to terms that could be used here without incurring the banhammer, before the three letter-acronym-that-is-now-banned-here was in more general use I seem to remember the term MtT (Male to Trans) and FtT (Female to Trans) were used.

Could these be resurrected or do they also incur the wrath of the banhammer..?