People ARE aware and thinking about the trans agenda. And they don't like it.

[Lamaha]

I live a very quiet, rural life and rarely meet new people. My close family know I am GC and so do a few friends, but I would never open the subject with a stranger.

At present though I am at a gathering of about 16 people at a country house; I've never met any of them before. Yesterday I went for a walk with three of them: a man from Dublin, a woman from Santa Fe, USA, and a woman who lives at the Barbicon, London. A very disparate group; I had known them only a few days. All aged in their 50's or 60's.

We were having a nice normal chat when out of the blue, the American began talking about pronouns, and how you now had to say they and them for everyone, and how she hated it. The man immediately leaped in. He was very angry about this, because, in his work, he is required to use certain pronouns and he thinks it totally ridiculous. "If you don't," he said, "they will come after you like a pack of raging mad dogs. It's terrible!" He was utterly furious. The Barbicon woman jumped in to explain about the alphabet salad and how ridiculous it all was. She reeled off all the letters and told us what each one was.
I was so delighted! I think over the next few days there might be a few rather interesting discussions! I already promised the American the Rohypnol link...
See, the word is spreading; people know, and are forming their own opinions, silently, stealthily. We will win - it can't be otherwise.
People are more awake than we might think -- even random strangers might very well be sharing our opinions. It's wonderful to find them.

nuno don't let perceived unpopularity of your opinion stop you from posting. I'm always interested to read points that go against the grain, if they're made clearly and in good faith, although I might not agree with them!

I've got no issue with anyone raising the topic of the perceptions people have of GC thoughts and the various different people who hold similar views on trans issues. It's a point that a few posters have taken the time to respond to here, and has had a few threads dedicated to it over time.

I am getting weary of people posting these sorts of queries, being answered and then having a sniffy whinge about how brave you have to be to post against the prevailing view here (like the Feminists who post here are the moderators with any power at all to dictate what is posted), and then refusing to engage any further.

I mean sure, you have the perfect right to state your piece and then fuck off in a huff, but I just don't understand the martyr complex. I have never, in all my years reading all of MN, been under the impression that making a point and then flouncing was sensible, respected behaviour. I don't know why some seem to think it is when women's rights are in view.

FloralBunting

I never said I was brave to make my post, I just said that I wasn't going to get into an argument about it, because it was very obvious that a lot of mumsnetters who care about this issue would respond the way you just have done – so well done for perfectly illustrating my point.

All I did was anticipate that the response would be hostile and misrepresent the things I said, which is exactly what you did – I never had a sniffy whinge, I never claimed to be brave, I never fucked off in a huff, I'm not playing a martyr, etc. etc., Yet you began by claiming to have no issue with people who post opposing views. Hmm. And then you wonder why people don't want to engage further with you? It's not because they're in a huff or playing the martyr, it's because you're hostileand unwilling to have a civil conversation.

Nuno, you don’t think pronouns are worth fighting about, lots of people do, for very well documented reasons. Your post at 11:23 was a bit rude by the way. Most people here who stick to correct sex pronouns have made a conscious, reasoned decision to do so. It’s not knee jerk transphobia as you seem to imply

Most people here who stick to correct sex pronouns have made a conscious, reasoned decision to do so

I don't disagree with that actually. But I think that's probably not the case for the average conversation down the pub. That was my point. If my 11:23 post was rude (I don't think it was really) then it certainly shouldn't have offended anyone here, since it wasn't aimed at anyone here.

From your 11:23 post Nuno

I always thought a group of people down the pub complaining about how they have to call a transwoman "she" was basically a complete anti-trans cliche, isn't it?

No, this is not transphobia. This is people legitimately complaining about others trying to control how they describe their perception of the world around them.

If your perception is that a person is male, it it reasonable to expect to be able to use male pronouns for that person without censure.

And if I may say so, you sound as if you are sneering rather at these fictional people down the pub.

Well, I don't claim to be a paragon of virtue, and I'm rather tetchy about the mode of "I'm GC but..." followed by answers which disagree and explain why, and then a post saying essentially "This is why everyone thinks you're mean."

Maybe you didn't intend to be the next in a long line of posters following that pattern, but sadly, you were on the day I was less inclined to not notice. I'm sure you don't need my approval though, so you'll be fine.

Just to expand on my post a little - just because a trans person may experience someone using the correct sex pronouns for them as transphobia, it doesn't mean it actually is.

just because a trans person may experience someone using the correct sex pronouns for them as transphobia, it doesn't mean it actually is

True. And similarly, just because some people who don't like to use "preferred pronouns" aren't anti-trans, doesn't mean that none of them are.

I've heard the "work makes me call this man a she - world's gone mad" conversation in pubs a million times, and sorry to say but 99% of the time it is not coming from well-meaning people waking up to gender critical feminism and the erosion of women's rights.

Not wanting to call a man 'she' doesn't make you some kind of bigot. It makes you someone who values their own judgement, or possibly someone who is consciously uncooperative. Neither of which make you a bad person.

just because a person isn't thinking in your approved manner, it doesn't mean it's a problem.

I've never had a problem calling a transwoman she/they... Should I? I always thought a group of people down the pub complaining about how they have to call a transwoman "she" was basically a complete anti-trans cliche, isn't it?

I strongly suggest that you read Barracker's brilliant article Pronouns are Rohypnol.

Try the following two sentences about a man who says he identifies as a woman:

She's upset that she's not welcome in the women's changing room.

Compared to:

He's upset that he's not welcome in the women's changing room.

The first sentence arouses sympathy. What cruel person would exclude her from the women's changing room?

The second makes it clear what is actually being demanded. Most people don't think men should be in the women's changing room.

I used to use female pronouns out of kindness, and I still would if face to face with a courteous man who identified as a woman (though tbh you seldom use third person pronouns in the presence of the person). But not in any other context these days. I've seen the harm it does.

also, what is 'anti-trans'? you keep using this phrase, can you explain what it means?

I've heard the "work makes me call this man a she - world's gone mad" conversation in pubs a million times, and sorry to say but 99% of the time it is not coming from well-meaning people waking up to gender critical feminism and the erosion of women's rights.

Sometimes just basic common sense and understanding of language is alive in those people down the pub and it just happens to coincide with gender critical feminist arguments.
Who'd-a thunk it.

Gender critical or not, it's at least acknowledging reality that people can't literally change sex.

Most people I've spoken to about this understand instantly how unfair it is to have men identify as women and enter women's sports and how dangerous it is to place men in women's prisons if they declare themselves a woman. The one exception is a man in his twenties who is a firm Corbynite/Momentum member who used to think I was being a mean transphobe. Even he has started to acknowledge that he doesn't understand women's issues and that I am concerned not because of a fear or hatred of trans people but because of an erosion of women's rights, though infuriatingly he won't engage beyond that for the time being - I'm chipping away!

NunoGoncalves
I am in a situation where I am called transphobic for accessing this board, for suggesting 15 year olds sometimes change their minds, for suggesting that children who aren’t sexually active don’t need to waste most of their free time defining their sexuality on tumblr, for being concerned that a vulnerable child may be targeted by adults with their own agenda, and for trying to keep that child free from harmful medical intervention. I do sometimes use their preferred pronouns, but I will not agree to do so, because then any slip is seen as further proof of mt transphobia and bad intentions. I’ve got so I barely dare to speak in my own home. Social transition is a step on the path to medical transition, and I think , in this case that would be mutilation. Pronouns are important.

I've heard the "work makes me call this man a she - world's gone mad" conversation in pubs a million times, and sorry to say but 99% of the time it is not coming from well-meaning people waking up to gender critical feminism and the erosion of women's rights.

You have no way of knowing what motivates strangers in the pub. But it's clear many people who are not feminists object to being bullied into lying and they have every right to object. Very few people actually believe human beings can change sex, and there's little patience for genderist nonsense outside the bubble of transactivism. I think you underestimate how many people are gender critical at a very basic gut level.

Words have meanings. If I see someone who is perfectly obviously male I will use he/him because those are the correct terms.

I am careful about how I refer to men who identify as women here because I don't want to have my posts deleted and possibly face a ban. But in other settings - real life for example - I use accurate terms.

It's really insulting to those people "down the pub" to infer that they are just too stupid to understand gender critical feminist theory and that their deliberate "misgendering" is therefore nothing but basic transphobia and bigotry.

Honestly.

I'd say that these fictional pub-goers have excellent comprehension of everyday words and refuse to comply with the distorted anti-science definitions woke folks. I call that pretty smart.

All the anecdotes related on this thread are more than anecdotes. They show that the general population the sleeping giant they tried to tiptoe around is rubbing her eyes and waking up.
It all starts with words and their meanings. If black becomes white and up becomes down which we are being asked to blindly accept we are truly lost as a society.

I see the point though - don't assume that everyone's coming to it from a "protect the women" point of view, they won't be. But that's obvious really.

Some will just hate everyone, and blame "the feminists" for bringing this on society. Some will be homophobic and disgusted at any man or woman defying norms.

However I would hope that most people come from a "that's mad because it lets abusive men do all sorts" point of view, instead of "cor blimey, political correctness gone mad!"

I've heard the "work makes me call this man a she - world's gone mad" conversation in pubs a million times, and sorry to say but 99% of the time it is not coming from well-meaning people waking up to gender critical feminism and the erosion of women's rights.

This makes my head hurt!

I've never had a problem calling a transwoman she/they... Should I?
(Sorry this was a comment quite far back)

Submitting to preferred pronouns means you accept a person as being in a particular sex class.
I do not accept any male born person to be of the sex class woman, it goes beyond politeness, it's compelled speech and coersive.
I find it insulting and offensive to call any of these people I have pictured "she" or "a woman" however much they would like me to.

Where are you supposed to draw the line? Only use preferred pronouns for some people but not others?

I think use of pronouns should be a choice available to the speaker in the same way it is to the person demanding them of the speaker. It is anyone's right to ask for you to use certain pronouns, but it should also be anyone's right to say "no it's ok I'll use the pronouns related to your sex".

Clothes don’t ‘make’ your sex. He/she is sex based.

I find it insulting and offensive to call any of these people I have pictured "she" or "a woman" however much they would like me to.

Thankfully, UK law does not require this. The GRA 2004 is explicit here and it nullifies any reference to "pronouns", "mis-gendering" and "dead-naming".

From GRA 2004, section 9 Explanatory Note 28:

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/notes/division/4/9

"Subsection (2) provides amplification of subsection (1), making clear that the recognition is not retrospective, so the certificate does not rewrite the gender history of the transsexual person, and that the new gender applies for the interpretation of enactments, instruments and documents made before as well as after the issue of a certificate"

[Note also: that use of the phrase "for all purposes" is restricted to law [enactments], instruments [amendments to law via statutory instruments] and documents [legal ID documents such as driving licence, passport, birth certificate].

Well I read a letter to the very trans friendly evening standard from a person complaining bitterly that Julie Bindel - who was attacked by a personal with a penis and beard - called her attacker he. But their name is Cathy and they wore a dress! How very dare she.

Their fluff on the NSPCC shit storm was also very bleh. I won’t bother reading it again - but then you get what you pay for (it’s free).

The pronouns issue reminds me of the quote about religion, "When people stop believing in God, they don't believe in nothing -- they believe in anything". I'm an atheist, but I know what GK Chesterton was getting at - when you stop being anchored to an existing belief system, you lose all reference points.

Asking someone to use the pronouns of one sex about someone they know is the other sex is - as PPs have said - demanding compliance and subservience, but it is much more than that. It undermines the whole purpose and integrity of language. If words that denote female can be applied to males (and vice versa) the whole structure of communication around everything to do with sex, gender and biology becomes meaningless. The ability to communicate anything about one sex, including all discussion of sex-based rights, is lost. Which is, of course, the point.

This MN thread is pertinent here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3607564-Dr-Em-The-Trojan-Unicorn-Queer-Theory-and-Paedophilia