People ARE aware and thinking about the trans agenda. And they don't like it.

[Lamaha]

I live a very quiet, rural life and rarely meet new people. My close family know I am GC and so do a few friends, but I would never open the subject with a stranger.

At present though I am at a gathering of about 16 people at a country house; I've never met any of them before. Yesterday I went for a walk with three of them: a man from Dublin, a woman from Santa Fe, USA, and a woman who lives at the Barbicon, London. A very disparate group; I had known them only a few days. All aged in their 50's or 60's.

We were having a nice normal chat when out of the blue, the American began talking about pronouns, and how you now had to say they and them for everyone, and how she hated it. The man immediately leaped in. He was very angry about this, because, in his work, he is required to use certain pronouns and he thinks it totally ridiculous. "If you don't," he said, "they will come after you like a pack of raging mad dogs. It's terrible!" He was utterly furious. The Barbicon woman jumped in to explain about the alphabet salad and how ridiculous it all was. She reeled off all the letters and told us what each one was.
I was so delighted! I think over the next few days there might be a few rather interesting discussions! I already promised the American the Rohypnol link...
See, the word is spreading; people know, and are forming their own opinions, silently, stealthily. We will win - it can't be otherwise.
People are more awake than we might think -- even random strangers might very well be sharing our opinions. It's wonderful to find them.

The teacher in the wealthier area has multiple trans and NB kids in her classes, the teacher in the other area has none. They were also hypothesising that there was something socioeconomic at play.

This is my experience. My kids secondary school is not at all 'woke'. Their equalities policy looks like it hasn't been updated in about a decade. Even though I think it could do with updating (for reasons other than gender stuff) I've left well alone in this climate.

It's not unsurprising really, it's a tough school with a lot of poor/disadvantaged kids that is only just starting to pull out of special measures after many years. Nobody there is navel gazing about gender, they have too much other stuff to deal with.

In comparison I've been told the town grammar school has several trans kids.

A colleague who generally chortles at my feminism told me recently about how his husband had set up a meeting at work and one (female) person rocked up and demanded loudly only to be referred to at ‘they/them’.

He hadn’t actually seen it before but was quite puzzled about how you can demand everyone else had to change their language and pussy foot around.

Just read above the term "embarrassing and self indulgent".

Sums up so much of this perfectly.

I've been musing about how we never hear about so-called Indigo Children any more.

My completely untested theory is that the ultra-woke MC parents of such interesting and special progeny have decided that having the whole rainbow is far more interesting and special than just indigo.

Definitely agree about the socio economic element. The two trans kids I know of at our local secondary are of woke middle class stock. No surprise at all.

I am heartened by the OP. The trouble is that political parties have an awful lot of U-turning to do on this issue and they hate doing that.

I'm not sure I've met anyone in real life who believes you can change sex.
I live in a stereotypical, no-nonsense Yorkshire town, where people generally speak their mind.
Also, contrary to what is often said here that men don't care about something until it affects them, all the men I have spoken to think it's total nonsense.

One of my followers on Twitter is a prominent local gay man with tens of thousands of followers.

He took exception to something that I said and retweeted it with the words 'Spot the Terf'. I noticed that just eleven of his followers 'liked' it.

I locked horns with him. He accused me of all sorts, in a series of tweets, including the suicide and murders of the most marginalised victims of crime in the world. I answered his points one by one with facts and sources. He got nastier and more angry.

No-one 'liked' any of his goady angry tweets, but I got a load of new followers. His attempts to organise his followers into a 'pile on' against me not only failed, but bit him on the arse.

They were also hypothesising that there was something socioeconomic at play

Our area is mainly deprived/working class few middle-class family’s area.

I was very surprised and taken back when my children told me it was in their schools – there was no warning just my kids finding a random time to ask questions on the topic as they were confused by what had been said.

Few months and further lessons one of DD1 friends changed their name and pronouns. Though having met them I think they would be at edging into middle class - higher social economic than many at their school.

I had thought it wouldn't be an issue in this area but I think getting it into the schools has meant it is.

I think there's a town/rural vs city element also. In my very rural area, nobody is Woke, including the kids. The local schools aren't Stonewall champions. The trouble I have had is in persuading people that any of this is even happening - but that does seem to be changing now. Awareness is growing, I think.

Being GC or pro-women does not make you "anti-trans"

I agree, but threads like this one certainly make that a little bit less clear. I would say I'm GC, but I've never had a problem calling a transwoman she/they... Should I? I always thought a group of people down the pub complaining about how they have to call a transwoman "she" was basically a complete anti-trans cliche, isn't it? And little to do with being GC. You almost expect the next topic to be "we're not allowed to sing Baa Baa Black Sheep to our kids anymore" or "we're not allowed to call it Christmas".

I'm GC, but I've never had a problem calling a transwoman she/they... Should I?

I know it's a surprise, but being 'GC' isn't a homogenous lump where everyone has exactly the same opinion. Some women here are happy to use certain concessionary language, others are emphatically not.

This can't be news to you if you're 'GC'.

My impression is that women who a year or two ago were quite happy to use the pronouns she/they for transwoman have slowly but surely changed and are refusing to do so. There is even growing opposition to the very word transwoman.
This is all a result of the increasing aggression and bullying from TRAs, the pushing of an extremist ideology (just read the thread about FGM as an example).

I might have used those terms in a written post a year or two ago. Now, I tend to avoid them (the terms) altogether because I am no longer willing to play that game. It was always a fiction that we went along with out of sheer niceness. I'm no longer willing to be nice, no longer willing to uphold the fiction. They seem to think that we really believed it when we used "she" and "her". That we took it literally. Never true.

I would treat any "transwoman" I came across with politeness and respect because that's who I am. But I won't play the game of pretending that person is "she"; not because I am anti-trans but because my store of good intentions, which was once full, has been depleted, worn away by one peak after the other. (OK, a mixed metaphor but you know that I mean.)

Telling the truth, sticking to the facts, for me is part of respect. I know they would interpret it as disrespect, but I can't help that. The respect goes toward their basic humanity, not towards the fiction of their "identity".

That by the way is my "religion", if it can be called that.

I've never had a problem calling a transwoman she/they... Should I?

No one "should" anything, we're all in this for different reasons, from different backgrounds, with different lines that we draw. I used to be very happy to use preferred pronouns as a kindness (I mean, I still would if I was speaking to a trans person directly) but in general conversation I now use the correct pronouns for the person's sex and I translate back to correct sex based pronouns if I'm reading an article/ news story. Here's a really good piece on why a lot of us have started doing that:

uncommongroundmedia.com/banned-from-medium-pronouns-are-rohypnol/

We've given an inch with pronouns and they've taken a mile. I'm for the truth now, not pandering to delusion or a masquerade. It's too costly to women and children to do anything else now imo.

Fairness and facts, not feelz.

If you want to see this in action then the Select Committee on enforcing the equality act in relation to women's refuges is a great example:

www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/0d07ff13-636e-4b51-a946-2877e583dc4c

Listen to how different the issue sounds when Karen IS talks about "trans identifying men" entering women's spaces vs how it sounds when Janet McD talks about "trans women" entering women's spaces.

Exactly what @Lamaha said. A year ago I would happily have used desired pronouns. Now I won't. I'm not playing that game anymore, you've got the awful behaviour TRA's to thank for that.

They seem to think that we really believed it when we used "she" and "her". That we took it literally. Never true.

I've started to think this way.

Though in RL I'd still be inclined to use prefer pronouns or plurals out of politeness at least for now.

I haven't used any words pertaining to my sex for people not of my sex since the day MN introduced the extra restrictions on FWR.

DH works in a very Male dominated environment
I have “educated “ him on the subject and he has brought it up at work. As his colleagues are all decent men they couldn’t understand why men would want to access female only spaces. They also had no idea that most Transwomen still have Male physiology.
Although they are a nice bunch they are all pretty “unwoke” and had no idea that some sections of the Trans community are trying to remove women’s rights in some areas. At first DH was met with “ that could never happen” when he explained what WAS happening and now they all agree that Transwomen are not all just people who want to be allowed to quietly live their lives presenting to the world as they choose and so measures do need to be taken to protect our rights in some areas

I think that another thing that needs to be looked at urgently is the dearth of proper help support, encouragement, talent recognition and services for people with serious mental health problems, with autistic spectrum disorders and for neurological-atypical people generally.

The cults, quacks, predators and groomers have filled a gap left by a lack in the provision of proper services.

There is an urgent need for these abuses to stop

In the case of the Emperor's New Clothes it is of course an innocent child, with critical thinking unaffected by the conformity of adult groups, who breaks the spell and proclaims the ridiculous and farcical truth.

Children can be dangerous to cults in this way and we are now seeing the brainwashing moving into schools and nurseries.

The NSPPC are, I think a well meaning organisation who do good things but they had their fingers burned in the 80s and 90s with the satanic panic. Please NSPCC learn the lessons of the past before things get even worse then they are now

... Should I? I always thought a group of people down the pub complaining about how they have to call a transwoman "she" was basically a complete anti-trans cliche, isn't it? And little to do with being GC. You almost expect the next topic to be "we're not allowed to sing Baa Baa Black Sheep to our kids anymore" or "we're not allowed to call it Christmas".

I don’t think this analogy works. We are being asked (and in many cases, compelled, if we want to keep our jobs) to use language in the opposite sense to which it was intended and has been used up until now, and in a way which defies our understanding of reality.

Yes and making children accepting of this.

Blurring their boundaries

I don’t think this analogy works. We are being asked (and in many cases, compelled, if we want to keep our jobs) to use language in the opposite sense to which it was intended and has been used up until now, and in a way which defies our understanding of reality

Tbf I wasn't really making an analogy. I'm just saying it seems unlikely that this group of strangers down the pub were waking up to the issues of womens rights rather than just complaining about something they perceive as annoying, and that all the cheering about it in this thread definitely blurs the line between being GC and anti-trans (I was making the point in response to someone saying that being GC does not necessarily mean being anti-trans, which is true).

Anyway I realise that pointing out when things straddle or cross that line on mumsnet is highly unpopular, so anyone tempted to tell me off for this post, please don't waste your time. I'm not looking to get into an argument here, I don't have the energy for it. Just putting in my two cents.

We went for cocktails at a super hipster bar last night. The barman mentioned listening to Joe Rogan podcasts so I mentioned trans identifying males in women’s sport and we had a pretty good chat about how men cannot actually become women, and how gender roles and stereotypes are negative for everyone.

I think the feminist message is filtering through, sometimes from what seems to be distinctly unlikely not-at-feminist sources!