Lesbian couple assaulted on a London bus because when they refused to kiss in front of a gang of men.

[AngeloMysterioso]

metro.co.uk/2019/06/07/gay-couple-beaten-refusing-kiss-mens-entertainment-9854367/

There aren’t really words to describe how sickened I am by this. In the city I’m proud to live in, in the middle of fucking Pride month, two women have been beaten up because they didn’t want to put on a show for some disgusting men.

(Have also posted this in AIBU so it reaches a wider audience)

I've just been reading on the telegraph site there has been no physical description of the men. I'm not even sure why this is relevant but the comments suggest it's an issue

wouldn't have got reported on so extensively if the women involved were overweight / middle aged.

This I mostly agree with, though. Or it would have been given a different spin.

@Maurice169

'I think it’s absolutely disgusting what happened to these girls. But I remember when...'

I'm not sure of the relevance of this anecdote tbh? What are you meaning by the 'but' part?

All you have done so far is given another example of men being violent?

Strange day - prick news has 'clarified' its article on Julie Bindel - sort of in a gaslighty way (although their adherence to facts is still limited)

• and the headline has magically, subtly changed...……….twitter.com/PinkNews/status/1137007793557377024

similar method Stonewall's magically changing statement above.

twitter.com/PinkNews/status/1137007793557377024

Blimey they actually took notice of the twitter thread! That's something I guess.
Mentions the word woman, also mentions same-sex then I think someone obviously had to go and find a back copy of Spare Rib (that they had collected at the Stonewall offices as kindling for when they burn the next witch for misgendering someone), because someone said 'there used to be a word, you know, a specialist word for non-male homosexual people, but buggered if I can remember what it was..........'

Stonewall can still FOTOOSOF(ATFOSM) -- I never thought I'd have to say that about Stonewall but they did it to themselves. And now, with this attack and the attack on Julie Bindel, couldn't be clearer where their priorities are. It ain't dykes, and the fact it was a gay female leading them when they did it.

No cookies to Stonewall for amending the statement at all.

Because if they actually cared, they would have said 'we apologize for our former statement' but they didn't. They just magicked it away.

And this happens to butch, middle-aged, young, old, I know because it was a few seconds away from happening to my friend and her wife. Only another car stopping to ask if they were OK stopped the assault. I hope we're all the people in the car that stopped.

Arrests made. Contact below if anyone has more information.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jun/07/two-women-left-bloodied-in-homophobic-attack-on-london-bus

@MPSRTPC
Investigation update:- Arrests have now been made and the investigation remains ongoing. If you have any information about this attack please report it to @metpoliceuk on 101 or via Crimestoppers anonymously on 0800 555 111.

They would never have done this if the women involved were overweight / middle aged etc.
*
I think it's more to the point that it wouldn't have got reported on so extensively if the women involved were overweight / middle aged.*

Yes. This. I had been thinking 'oh at least this is so rare that it is actually news' but yes this sort of male violence happens all the time.

And to this is why we still need Pride

What about the misogynistic lesbophobia there?

Women need our own fucking movement and our own fucking spaces.

Powerful phone in from Juliet to James O'Brien - is there a chink in his woke armour showing?
Check out @jackappleby’s Tweet: twitter.com/jackappleby/status/1137033071222493184?s=09

This is a horrible attack - the words vile, thugs, etc should be used. (Wondering if anyone is going to question us using those words on this thread?)

I'm not sure if this is the right place for it, as I don't want to skew the thread, and it's a powerful piece on its own.

twitter.com/jackappleby/status/1137033071222493184

It's a section of LBC recording of a discussion between:
Juliet -giving a powerful testament to what's happening to lesbians right now.

James O'Brien - a presenter many of us on these boards will be familiar with. I'm mainly cynical but this seems a little bit of a watershed moment for James. It's difficult to listen to Juliet without acknowledging something's gone wrong.

If James really did absorb what she's saying, and his nod to the fact he doesn't know fully what's going on and will look into it more, he'll be sitting with his cogntivie dissonance for a while, whilst he does more research. (Though to be honest James, women have been flagging this in various ways on your show for ages!)

His comments about same-sex attraction are already veering into 'transphobic territory'.

What James does/says next will be interesting.

(I don't think Jack Appelby is on MN but thanks Jack for recording the segment in your living room!)

Bollocks do older women not get targeted. Me and my partner get plenty of verbals and intimidation. Thankfully we’ve never been physically assaulted but verbal abuse is quite common. It’s nothing to do with attractiveness, it’s about reminding lesbians that we’re less than, and that we’re not welcome in public space.

Once we got followed off a bus late at night by a man asking if we were together, what we liked to do together etc. I’m pretty sure it wasn’t because he fancied us.

There’s plenty of lesbophobia around.

Imnobody cross-post same thinking!

I said on the other thread that it sadly doesn’t surprise me. I have been in a handful of fights, all to defend myself/partner from a homophobe. I’m loosely seeing someone at the moment, we walked to his flat seperately today as it’s safer.

Gay people are protected in law, but socially things are actually getting worse.

Those pictures are horrendous. I'm absolutely sickened by this but not surprised. In the last couple of years I've started hearing some quite nasty banter from men in my social circle, including liberal lefties, about lesbians. It's all very revealing in how porn-related it is.

Well done Juliet. James O'Brien says he has an inquisitive mind but we'll see - it sounds like he thinks that bottom surgery should be a determining factor in who qualifies as a lesbian. Who the hell is he to say that to a lesbian woman? Idiot.

Yes, I think they are getting worse, but that mainly because I don’t feel safe from other members of the lgbT++++ now. Some young woke bloke shouted terf at me from the other side of the street last year and I’ve stayed away from anything lgbT++++ related since.

One bloke calling me an ugly dyke is very much like another bloke calling me an ugly dyke so it all just melds into one, but the terf thing was new, and it meant that the places I used to go to and feel safe no longer feel safe.

I've started hearing some quite nasty banter from men in my social circle, including liberal lefties, about lesbians

So what actions does one take to resolve this?

Well, James O'Brien may well retain the male perspective that everyone man retains in this topic, but that's the first time I have heard him show any actual concern for a woman caught up in this. It's more than I have come to expect, sadly.

I complained to the BBC about their coverage of this appalling attack - the headline completely failed to mention that the victims were women and that they seemed equally unable to use the word ‘lesbian’ in the entire article.

This is a violent attack by men on women, apparently motivated by sexism as much as by homophobia.

Powerful stuff. I'm still puzzled by the pre/post op thing though. As we know, most TW retain male genitalia anyway, but this distinction of pre/post makes it sound as if a post op TW are acceptable to lesbians. I'm sure there will be individuals who would be ok with that but surely not most lesbians? We see so much typical male behaviour from TW I can't imagine most lesbians would give a post op house room either. I'm straight, can anyone clarify what the general lesbian feeling is?

I don't pretend to be able to speak in general for women sexually attracted to women, but even though I am also, on rare occasions attracted to men, I can say with some certainty that no, post OP wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference. Women come in shapes and sizes. They never look like a man on artificial hormones with some cosmetic work done on his genitals.

Having said that, I suspect this is an aspect of the topic that most people don't really hurry to investigate, because it's quite an uncomfortable idea to examine, for all sorts of different reasons for different people. Men, in particular, I suspect, find the idea that a man would have his genitals so drastically and painfully altered so shocking that they are willing to concede that man to a vague sort of 'woman-ness' out of pure body horror.

But from a female perspective, a woman is not a man without a penis. So there's not much more to say.

Thanks for your reply Floral and it was as I had thought. I can't imagine fancying a transman but maybe an individual's personality could be so attractive it would over-ride the transness. O'Brien will hopefully make the next leap soon and realise a man without his cock & balls is still a man.

See that's the funny thing - I know a trans person who is female. They pass for all of five seconds when you meet them, and have that scruffy half beard thing going on, and the voice roughed up by T. But I can still see how I might find them attractive, not least because I know they are not a male. They don't, despite the T and what I hope so far is only a binder, read as male. So it wouldn't throw me at all in an intimate setting, to find female genitals. They would just be a hairy butch and I've quite happily snogged a few of them... ahem

It's hard to quantify, and it's even harder to articulate within the forum guidelines, but I don't have a female 'type'. I don't only like femmes or butches, I can get my head turned by Keeley Hawes in 40's glam, or Anne Ruzylo with that really cheeky twinkle in her eye and the rakish smile. All women have different personalities, and yes, that is part of attraction. But physical attributes are too, and sex is as fundamental as can be to that. Someone who has had a long correspondence with someone before meeting them might be able to attest to the fact that you can feel greatly attracted to a personality, and then meet in person and just not find them attractive physically. How much more pronounced this is when they aren't actually the sex you are oriented towards.

Hope I've managed to explain what I mean without being deletion worthy.

It’s all part and parcel of living in such a diverse city of which London is one. Don’t you all feel so enriched?

Hmm I wouldn't say there was a 'general lesbian feeling' but I can't imagine I would ever be atracted to a TW either pre or post op. I generally read them as male. I guess possibly if someone really passed, but a dick on someone who actually looked female would be an absolute nono for me. This seems to be the case with most of my gay mates too, that an artificial vagina is not really an attractive thought (especially when you read that they often leak faeces and such) and also that, people brought up as male tend to not 'act' female. Not in a like, feminine pink sparkles kind of way obviously. But just, they still have the entitlement issue that seems to be common in men, the thinking they are more important than everyone else, and just..well things that tend to come with being brought up as a male in this world, I know you all on this board will understand what I mean here but am struggling to articulate for lurkers. 'Lesbians with penises' though, are widely thought to be basically the same guys who a few years back would 'joke' that one go on their magificent cock would turn you straight and you should just try it and so on. Mind now, its not just you should try it, its you are a bigot if you don't learn to 'deal with it'. Which is just rapey bullshit.

That said, I am closer to 40 than 20 and it seems to be mainly younger lesbians being targeted with this stuff. I find it unlikely that many older and maybe more secure in themselves people would fall for the rapey creepy bollocks, and I don't think its really intended for us either. Its to make sure new lesbians do not get ideas above ther stations and reject cock totally, how awful, how could anyone do that!?

I don't know many younger lesbians, but I did ask one mate a while back, shes only 17 and a baby butch. She ummed and ahhed about it and I could tell she wanted to say no but ended up with a 'maybe, anything could happen I guess' type answer. I did go a little mother on her at that stage though and tell her that, as we say no is a complete sentence and that if she was in the situation, only go for it if she wanted to, do not accept guilt trips or anything to try and change your sexuality.

I know you asked about lesbians, but among gay males I know too, I have broached the topic of transmen and that has been a resounding no. No explaining or feeling guilty, just a flat out 'no I am only attracted to men' or 'I want a real dick'. Again, might be different among younger gay males but, I doubt it. Especially as they are currently not being guilt tripped, or nowhere near as often if the rare occasion does happen.