Boundaries and Allies

[DancingRaven]

I came across a post on Twitter which included what appears as a screenshot from a WhatsApp conversation with a gender critical ally. The image is attached for reference.

It is so disappointing to see this, are women's boundaries just amusing to everyone? How can we work together when our sex based rights are just 'politics'?

BretonDinosaur r.e. username;
no its not book related. I was not aware that was a charactor in a book. Chio is a childhood friend and chan is an informal prefex, informal version of San.

It makes you wonder why they bother with Terfblocker when they spend so much time lurking here.

This!

I just don't see the need to give TRAs ammunition.

What can we do about it? Stop talking?

stellaomalley I very much respect your work and I get where you’re coming from here but it’s not just the joking about it that’s the problem, it’s the fact that DH has chosen on many occasions to use the women’s toilets despite women asking DH not to, despite them making their discomfort with that clear.

It’s the whole thing of being an ally but only so far. And the fact that it’s DH who gets to decide how far DH’s allyship should extend, and DH who decides how far to respect women’s wishes, or not. There is a cognitive dissonance here that is really quite brain jangling.

You say “we” need to pull together but the trouble is that DH’s needs do not align with women’s needs. I’m not sure where the “we” is.

But as I said, I respect your work, the film you made, the fact you’ve put yourself on the line by speaking out on this subject. Genuinely appreciated.

But as I said, I respect your work, the film you made, the fact you’ve put yourself on the line by speaking out on this subject. Genuinely appreciated.

Oh, same here, Stella.

And I totally understand the desire to find middleground.

But, I know a transwoman who is perfectly lovely, is not any kind of criteria. It really isn't.

For a start, it's utterly unworkable. And secondly, you are only taking into account the man who identifies as a woman. What about all the women, who couldn't give a fuck what his motivation is???

My father-in-law is delightful, wouldn't hurt a fly. I wouldn't expect you or any other woman to disrobe in front of him or share an intimate space with him.

This really is not about individuals.

It is, however, about challenging individuals who claim that it is.

^Where do Transman fit in this debate?

Whilst they are women. Some present unquestionably as men. Full beards etc.

Relevance to this thread?^

I suppose it's in reference to "passing" transmen in female spaces who, whilst they don't present the same threat as men/TW, would still provoke the same response. TM pass much better than TW (though still not brilliantly imo) and it would still be distressing to women to see them in there. They may challenge them, or just leave/feel upset/ self exclude. If a TM gets challenged and says "it's OK, I'm a TM" but looks convincingly male, we can't prove it's true. It's a common TRA "gotcha" to say that a predatory man could use a woman's space whilst claiming to be a TM. And in many cases that's true, until we get a third space option. I don't really have any answer for it, except to feel really sad that there are so many people out there trying to make it impossible for people to interact in a safe, honest, meaningful way.

You say “we” need to pull together but the trouble is that DH’s needs do not align with women’s needs. I’m not sure where the “we” is.

Agree.

Women are people in their own right. A concept and an entity independent of men. With shared characteristics that places them in the same category.

Women are not non-men. Or weak men, or men without a penis, or frightened men or disabled men, or gay men.

This on a t-shirt

Not suprised. Relieved to see it in writing at last. I have never been taken in by someone with so obviously a competing agenda.

I've tried to challenge DHayton before and got patronised and ignored.

FWIW, I made an apology on a previous thread about my typo that sounded v slightly rude if you wanted to see it that way, but to be honest my apology was in the main to the women of FWR in case my typo got seized upon by trolls and MRAs. DHayton I'm not so bothered about offending since they use women's spaces and could not care less about offending or upsetting me. Many times I have found women's only toilets to be a seriously necessary (temporary) relief from harassment and stress. It fucking matters and having men's respect matters.

DHayton only replied to my post in order to lap up the apology.. ignored the all rest.. tells me all I need to know

Wise up @Glinner and friends

Stella when DHayton "pulls together" with women by respecting my/our boundaries then we are on the same side, till then they are part of, no they are exactly the problem.

"Just politics" fuck off. All narcs see other people's issues as mere game playing. PROJECTION and DARVO. Flippancy/minimising

Some mental health traits/personality disorders, misogyny, abuse, POMO...some of it is all the same very dark stuff

Debbie I have just seen your post... Bottom line is you are pushing women's boundaries (and buttons) for your own gain. You know it is wrong. Stop saving yourself by harming others. STOP harming women. JUST FUCKING STOP IT

a flippant comment
Dh has been told To their face to not use women's spaces on more than one occasion and has ignored women's wishes and concerns
Dh gaslights women on a regular basis
Dh talks over women
Dh was up to his neck in mattressgate a few weeks ago and ignored women, tried to gaslight us in private, defended an unknown account who doxxed a woman and has refused to answer at questions about their involvement
DH changed women's signatures from mothe to parent without permission

The inclusion some men (however they identify) by some women is the schism.

Agreed.

I can't understand how intelligent women say 'this one is okay, oh I know that one they're fine, this one's only 17, come on, hang on this one has had full surgery, oh come on, they have been identified as a woman since they were 14. But this is my best friend/husband/girlfriend, etc.

Seriously. How can you ever square this away. Don't other women mean anything? Anything at all?

It's simple. Don't use women's spaces, compel my speech or claim to be the same as a woman, as a male person. I have no problem with any trans person if they respect women enough to do this.

Debbie acknowledges the maleness, so as pp said the gaslighting is even more jarring.

DH changed women's signatures from mothe to parent without permission

What do you mean?

If a transman looks convincingly male and wants to use male facilities, why shouldn't they?
Men are really unlikely to feel at all threatened by a transman.
If men do feel threatened by sharing facilities with transmen, then men can complain about it and campaign about it.

We are women, concerned with the rights of women and girls.

Stella do you want us all to pull together to pander to male feelings?
If a man pretends in public to be nice to you should he have women's rights a reward? Are single sex spaces cookies now?

I have posted numerous times on numerous threads that nobody who has a wife as as miserable as DH's wife clearly was on the Stella O Malley documentary, can ever be considered to be an ally to women.

I think as a trans widow I should have some credibility on this issue, yet DH has continued to be feted by many people here.

The worst appropriation of all is taking the platform in gender critical feminist spaces thus excluding your female family members from these very spaces that were set up to support them.

It makes me bloody furious.

And that applies whether the original screenshot is genuine or not.

Debbie you say you are struggling with these issues at the moment.
I hope you search deeply. I hope your struggle is due to you knowing that you are stepping over women's rights. You have to make a stand if you want me to stop doubting your intent.
You cannot make yourself the exception in the same breath that you defend women.
It's untenable. No wonder you are struggling.

All of transgenderism is a form of abuse of women and girls. The whole thing. There is no acceptable level of breaching women’s boundaries, of eroding our right as the more vulnerable, disadvantaged sex to truly single sex spaces and services.

Thank you. I’ve gone from feeling sorry for those who identify as trans to feeling exactly like that. I no longer want to pretend that I care about their cause, because they sure as fuck don’t give a shit about the rights of women and children. I wish them no harm but I put women and children first. If that makes me guilty of thought crimes, then I’ll gladly take that insult.

Terfblocker is all about the power to silence uppity women on twitter

Do check out the back end of this thread for consideration of how this affects trans widows
Stella O'Malley, Trans Kids: It's Time To Talk www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3430608-Stella-OMalley-Trans-Kids-Its-Time-To-Talk