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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Wagamama and gender neutral toilets

550 replies

TulipsTulipsTulips · 31/05/2019 20:55

40% of wagamama’s toilets will be gender neutral by September. The last thing I want to do when I go out for a meal is share the facilities with men. We are different and deserve privacy! How have women’s interests become such a low priority?

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Outanabout · 02/06/2019 11:58

They're going to provide ONE female toilet in each premises. They're getting g their arse handed to them, but I doubt they'll care because most people won't have noticed the row.

I'm surprised businesses haven't taken note of what's happened to Target's profits in the US since they went gender neutral. 8% drop in profits, which is not to be sniffed at.

DecomposingComposers · 02/06/2019 12:20

Are they actually changing anything?

In the two that we go to here all of the toilets are individual, self contained rooms and always have been. So what is different?

Outanabout · 02/06/2019 12:37

What's different is that they trumpeted that they were doing it to be trans inclusive.

PCohle · 02/06/2019 12:40

No, what seems odd is that you don't know why (some) women feel safer in the old-style single-sex-with-cubicles arrangement.

I absolutely understand why some women might prefer a single-sex-with-cubicles arrangement. But given how many of the articles re the risk of voyeurism shared on this thread actually involve women being spied on over/under cubicles, I also understand why many women might prefer single-occupant enclosed bathrooms.

Given that (some) women, perfectly reasonably, feel safer in single-occupant enclosed bathrooms I don't quite understand the vitriol being directed against them and anyone who isn't automatically against them.

DecomposingComposers · 02/06/2019 12:41

What's different is that they trumpeted that they were doing it to be trans inclusive

So there's no material difference, it's just that they are publicising it?

Outanabout · 02/06/2019 13:50

They've made a choice in the past to have a lot of mixed sex toilets - presumably for reasons of space and economy. Now they're attempting to garner brownie points by putting an 'inclusive' spin on the fact that they're going to change even more of their toilets to mixed sex, even though quite a lot of women don't like that arrangement.

DecomposingComposers · 02/06/2019 13:57

I'm confused. Are these mixed sex toilets or unisex toilets?

The toilets in wagamamas here are unisex is one enclosed self contained cubicle opening directly onto the corridor and used by anyone.

Mixed sex to me means multiple cubicles in a room (like traditional single sex toilets) but used by both men and women together.

Outanabout · 02/06/2019 14:13

Just because that's what it means to you doesn't mean it's what it means to everyone. If both sexes can use them, then they're mixed sex. Unisex is a meaningless word really. Could be applied to dungarees I suppose. Or bumbags. Not to toilets.

Outanabout · 02/06/2019 14:15

...and I don't think anyone in this thread is co fused about anything.

LangCleg · 02/06/2019 14:32

Some effort being gone to in an attempt to obscure the risk of spy cameras, I see. Do posters even know that such films are among the most viewed genres on many porn sites? Would it bother them to have a starring role in one - up on the web for anyone to see?

The risk of spy cameras is this: if males can use the same toilets as females, then a layer of protection against this has been removed. If the only males allowed into women's toilets are staff (to clean or inspect) then the risk is lower and, if it were to happen, the chance of identifying the perpetrator are higher.

It's not rocket science.

LangCleg · 02/06/2019 14:38

Anyway. I miss haXXor, who was excellent on security issues. Here she is, telling us about the Swiss Cheese model:

In fact, not even that: there are two cheese layers before we get to "competent guardians" being in the same space as rapists and targets and preventing rapes by being there.

First cheese layer: we use peer enforcement of single-sex spaces to keep the offender (male, rape weapon person) from getting near the target (female, unpatchable security vulnerability person), enabling women and girls to visit the loo alone. The 94% of men who do not use their penises to rape are also part of that peer enforcement, by challenging a man attempting to enter the ladies as he makes the attempt, or summoning the police/attendant if a man persists in trying to enter the ladies even when challenged.

Second cheese layer: we use the social norm that males use the men's loos and females use the women's loos to filter non-rapist men from risky men, because non-rapist men aren't going to use the women's loo intentionally and, if they do by mistake, they will leave when challenged. Hence, a male in the women's loos has already red-flagged himself as a threat, just by being there, and women in the area can take informed action (e.g. leave, go in in groups for safety, call the police, etc). If social norms change (e.g. multiple occupancy mixed toilets become widespread or males become more tolerated in the ladies loos), we won't be able to rely on a male's presence in the ladies as a red-flagging criteria. We'll have to either take a greater risk of rape or not pee, and no one can hold it in forever.

The "competent guardian" third cheese layer only kicks in if/when a rapist is already inside the loo, the presence of multiple women in the loo acts as a deterrent to rape. This is the last cheese layer, and two cheese layers failed if you had to rely on this one for safety.

Bearing in mind how few rape cases make it to court "you can report your rape, that will deter a rapist" is not a cheese layer. If the three cheese layers fail and a female is raped, a police report is incident post-mortem, not prevention. The aim here is prevention.

The GRA changes, which take away females' ability to challenge men by taking away our ability to presume legal entitlement to enter female space based on visual assessment of biological sex, remove the second cheese layer completely and fill the first with so many holes that it's near-useless, forcing us to rely on the third cheese layer, and if you are the only woman in the loo, you don't even have that any more. This puts any female who wants to go anywhere on her own or with only male company (e.g. husband) on a bladder leash, and that's not on.

I was in Germany once and some fool town planner had put a bench right outside a women's loo. Two guys were sitting on that bench and verbally sexually harassing every woman who used the loo. It was very intimidating. They were deterred from entering only because bystanders can stop them or call the police. Imagine if they could self-id as women... And men will, oh they will: if they will choose jobs (John Worboys, Ian Huntley) to get access to victims and risk their wages and liberty to abuse, if they will risk HIV and hepatitis B to shove used tampons up their arses for sexual thrills, if they will break into houses to wear teen girls knickers to wank and film it (which was useful evidence in the trial), they will fill in GRC forms

(Here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3271463-The-Simple-Problem-with-Those-Anti-Trans-Protesters-Big-Stunts?msgid=78497493#78497493)

And here she is being brilliant on the toilets topic in particular:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3286124-The-case-for-retaining-single-sex-mass-toilets-alongside-any-unisex-provision-Title-edited-by-MNHQ-at-the-request-of-the-OP

RedHoodGirl · 02/06/2019 14:43

People don’t like mixed-sex toilets (because of potential peeping-tom’s / hygiene reasons)

They also don’t like single cubicle toilets which either men or women use (hygiene/ space issues
But don’t like single sex toilets (spaces under doors / thin partition walls)

So what are people supposed to use?

There’s also the ‘ideal’ design, but many buildings can’t accommodate the ‘ideal’ due to existing design.

What’s people’s preferred solution (list with favourite at top)?

Outanabout · 02/06/2019 15:26

LangCleg that may be very good, but I got completely confused by the 'cheese' thing, I couldn't understand what was going on 😳

RedHoodGirl most people were happy enough with how things were. Separate toilets for men and women.

sackrifice · 02/06/2019 15:44

So what are people supposed to use?

How's about men stick to the gents and stay the fuck out of the ladies?

I mean, fuck me sideways it ain't half difficult sussing that out is it?

Outanabout · 02/06/2019 15:50

sackrifice Evidently it's so complicated that there's no satisfying those difficult women.

LangCleg · 02/06/2019 16:03

People don’t like mixed-sex toilets (because of potential peeping-tom’s / hygiene reasons). They also don’t like single cubicle toilets which either men or women use (hygiene/ space issues But don’t like single sex toilets (spaces under doors / thin partition walls)

People don’t like mixed-sex toilets (because of potential peeping-tom’s / hygiene reasons). They also don’t like single cubicle toilets which either men or women use (hygiene/ space issues But don’t like single GENDER toilets (spaces under doors / thin partition walls BECAUSE MALES ARE IN THEM

There. Fixed it for you. The want is for a sufficient number of single sex toilets for women. Due to space and women needing more time than men, this is best accomplished by multi-stall, single sex facilities.

It doesn't take an advanced reading comprehension to follow this line of thought.

PCohle · 02/06/2019 16:12

Calling anyone who doesn't automatically agree that single-occupant unisex bathrooms are a total fucking outrage stupid/confused/lacking reading comprehension seems unnecessarily rude and not a particularly constructive way to discuss the issue.

whateverhappenstheremore · 02/06/2019 16:20

I prefer a enclosed toilet with its own sink to a ladies washroom to be honest.

DecomposingComposers · 02/06/2019 16:23

I prefer a enclosed toilet with its own sink to a ladies washroom to be honest.

Me too. I have Crohn's disease and hate needing to use a public toilet where people can hear me. Much prefer the privacy of an enclosed toilet.

NunoGoncalves · 02/06/2019 16:40

Lots of small cafés/coffee shops (including chains like Starbucks, EAT, Pret, etc.) already have mixed sex single occupancy toilets in an enclosed room with a basin. Usually because they only have one or sometimes two toilets. This has been the case for years and I've never heard anyone complaining.

Kimchee306 · 02/06/2019 16:43

Outanabout has nailed it.
"They've made a choice in the past to have a lot of mixed sex toilets - presumably for reasons of space and economy. Now they're attempting to garner brownie points by putting an 'inclusive' spin on the fact that they're going to change even more of their toilets to mixed sex, even though quite a lot of women don't like that arrangement"

SirVixofVixHall · 02/06/2019 17:46

But you can have a decent sturdy cubicle, and it still be single sex occupancy. Having the ladies in a different area to the gents also makes the Ladies safer, as any male going there automatically atracts attention.
Having a narrow, creepy corridor, with flimsy single units off it, where women have to sidle past men’s cubicles to get to theirs at the end, as Wagamama do in Cardiff, is a sexual assault waiting to happen.

sackrifice · 02/06/2019 17:50

I prefer a enclosed toilet with its own sink to a ladies washroom to be honest

It's not just the enclosed issue, it is the proximity issue.

A corridor where men can stop you leaving, is no good at all.

Separate areas completely, with enclosed is obviously the best solution all round.

nzborn · 02/06/2019 18:11

l personally won't use any business that's LAZY when it comes to providing separate toilets for men and women.l think it basically is cost saving

LassOfFyvie · 02/06/2019 18:14

I prefer a enclosed toilet with its own sink to a ladies washroom to be honest

Me too. I have Crohn's disease and hate needing to use a public toilet where people can hear me. Much prefer the privacy of an enclosed toilet

Me too and for the same reason. At work there are 2 enclosed single occupancy toilets some distance from my desk but I always use them. I never use the "ladies' loo, which is much nearer unless it's late and everyone has gone home.

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