Even when they get what they want....

[BoxOfBabyCheeses]

....they still scream "transphobia!"

UCLA have said that they will install a number of unisex bathrooms throughout campus. These will have floor to ceiling partitions to protect privacy. Now students are claiming that this is transphobia as it implies that trans people are all peeping toms. They get what they claim they want, but they want it on their terms not ours.

I've being made fun of and invalidated purely because I used the word "soul" ... a picture of a rock has now been shared?

The rock is a specific rock, it's a grey rock. It's not for hurling at you, it means ignore you. Which is tricky because you mentioned two massive triggers for the women here. TWAW and souls.

I'm sorry if it feels like a pile on, it's just what you said really winds us up. It's nonsense we are fed up of hearing.

The souls business makes me feel TRAs should have their own religion, because we have past into that territory.

You and limekiwi could always try grey rocking us!

I don't believe in "souls" but those who do also believe in God and they don't believe that he makes mistakes. The belief in "souls" is a religious belief and entirely incompatible with the notion of "born in the wrong body".

We're all born in the right body. That some people find their bodies distasteful - even abhorrent - doesn't mean they were 'born in the wrong body'.

We have sex-segregated facilities for reasons of privacy and safety. The internet is awash with men who identify as women for reasons such as autogynephilia - they now outnumber the transwomen with gender dysphoria and are the ones pushing most vociferously for the destruction of single sex facilities.

You and limekiwi could always try and grey rock us
So each so called "side" just shouts grey rock! or posts a picture of a rock every time we hear a different opinion?
Then you (general you) say you want to hear other opinions really
Not sure how that's supposed to work with rocks everywhere

As I said in the other thread about this, it’s not about transphobia it’s about control. No concession re bathroom space will ever be enough for TRAs until there are no cubicle partitions at all. It is precisely about eliminating any and all boundaries women have; making their woman allies complicit in their own boundary elimination is the icing on the cake for them

Absolutely.

It's a waste of intellectual and emotional labour, having pointless conversations with people who won't define their terms and use every logical fallacy in the book.

Recommending other women do not similarly waste their time and attention is what I mean when I post an image of a grey rock.

I love it when people explain how transwomen are women in terms of souls.

I love it when organisations like UCLA take transwomen are real women to its logical conclusion: no adaptations to women's bathrooms are necessary, just let the transwomen in.

It all shows it up for what it is. There's a lot more of it being made public now. Good.

The logical conclusions are not having enclosed cubicles, Karen White in a woman's prison, men winning women's races, etc. All these things seem bonkers to ordinary people. Now journalists aren't so easily silenced by the chanting of TWAW these things get reported. Also the woke get quizzed more seriously and either end up talking about souls or having weird violent hissy fits thus showing it up as a modern religion or themselves as nutters.

More sunlight. It works. Not to change trans-fundamentalists viewpoints, they'll still be gender-Moonies, but their attempts to build laws will get rolled back.

Trans women are real women
Anyway, I'm perfectly entitled to my opinion
You are entitled to your opinion. You are not entitled to your own facts.

Gender-Moonies

If limekiwi you think that the arguing is being done purely for trolling then yes. You ignore. You grey rock.

I find that an easier concept to understand than the concept of misgendered souls.

This thread is another example of how nothing less than women's (those not born with a penis obvs) complete capitulation is enough. If we disagree we're 'piling on' if we say to each other don't argue, (using the MN code of a rock) we're also in the wrong.

How can you tell a poster is not a woman? They're the people telling women how they are doing womaning wrong.

I think it's really sad I've been attacked like this, and the pack mentality is extremely depressing.

Disagreement is not attacking, stop the drama and reproachful sniffing and get a grip for goodness sake. And a majority view disagreeing with you is also not a pack mentality.

I respect your right to hold your own religious beliefs. My own personal religious beliefs include ideology that souls are unsexed and in the course of different lifetimes inhabit male or female bodies, but I don't expect you to practice my beliefs regardless of your own, that would be exceptionally disrespectful and rude towards you. So I'd appreciate if you'd extend the same courtesy to others who share different belief systems.

There are limits to what people identifying as trans can demand others do to enable them, and you're illustrating well the OPs point. The total lack of capacity to consider never mind respect anyone else's feelings, beliefs, experiences or needs equally.

Twaw? How - do please explain how this is correct and yet ‘dogs are cats’ is not?

Even though we had a single dog and a load of moggies - and the dog really did join the pack of cats - almost as if he thought he was a cat... trans cat you may even say.

You are entitled to your opinion. You are not entitled to your own facts.

Judas I never tire of saying that!

You're right, disagreeing isn't attacking - you general you straight away started "wipe your tears", rocks, idiot etc at the poster.
So to say it was just disagreeing - erm... right ok

It's a waste of intellectual and emotional labour, having pointless conversations with people who won't define their terms and use every logical fallacy in the book.

I agree to a point. However given the huge increase in traffic to the feminism boards it’s always worth pointing out the gaping holes in their arguments for new people.
I’m sure it won’t take long for intelligent people to see the ridiculousness once we point it out.

The disingenuous buffoons are our peak trans secret weapon. The more they argue about souls and such nonsense the better.

@LimeKiwi for goodness sake women don't have to be kind, nice and generous to people who are supporting policy and social trends that are harming us.

If you are asked a question about your belief system and you can not answer it, then you need to go away and have a serious think about that belief system. It is not enough to whimper and flounce and play victim in order to avoid the development of debate - especially one as important as this.

See what I mean? Disingenuous buffoons when all the poster did was give a different opinion!
You say it peak trans. There's a banging job of peaking going on the other way round though.

For clarity - it's not me saying disingenuous buffoons. I was quoting. Before somebody decides to read it wrong.

You are entitled to your opinion. You are not entitled to your own facts

This. In spades.

I get the feeling that somewhere along the line we’ve encouraged debate (in schools? in the media?) to the point where opinions are considered to be concrete facts. And people genuinely cannot distinguish between the two.

There's a banging job of peaking going on the other way round though

Which never actually happens though.

Because people make decisions on what policy to support based on things like 'not disablist' and 'not homophobic' and 'not racist' and 'not anti freedom of thought' and 'not pro rape culture' and 'I really don't want women excluded from women's provision when they're raped/need a smear test/need refuge from a male partner trying to kill them/ want somewhere to change or pee or swim without males present'.

Not 'which side has the nicest manners'.

And frankly if you're picking your policy to follow based on who is nicest, do note you'll never find any FWR post that makes death threats, rape threats, threatens specific violence or mutilation or implies anyone is not worthy of basic human and civil rights. You'll find that in spades on twitter from TRA political lobbyists. Unless of course your demand for nice manners only applies to women?

Once again @LimeKiwi you are missing the point. Are you going to answer any questions or points or are you simply here to point out the nasty ladies being meanies.?

Then you (general you) say you want to hear other opinions really

I've written, deleted and tried to rewrite a post about this ten times. Trying to rationalise, qualify, debate, explain.

Fuck it.

I feel constantly bashed over the head with this cosh of 'souls/transwomen are women, that's where you have to start the debate/biology has moved on, we don't know what a woman is/bigot/transphobe/pile-on/attacking'.

Thankfully, I'm resiliant. But I know lots of women don't have that resiliance, for lots of good reasons. I'm here for them.

This is the fucking Feminism and Womens Rights (FWR) forum on Mumsnet.

I did the work of researching this shit before I spoke out. Many, many other posters here have also done their research, listened to opinions, and know where they stand.

Those posters shouldn't have to spend their time apologising for fighting for women's rights.

Women's rights.

And most of us here know what that means.

I owe noone an apology or more of my time to explain why a person born with a penis is NOT a woman.