make up and 6yo DD - what to do?

[resisterpersister]

Please help me deal with this situation!

DD's cousins came to visit yesterday, and gave 6yo DD a make up set. The cousins rarely visit and I didn't feel up to souring the visit by rejecting the gift in front of them. So she spent yesterday with her cousins, covering themselves with make up. She bloody loves it. First thing she did this morning? Put more make up on.

Lots of DD's classmates are allowed to play with make up, but she knows I won't buy it for her. I don't wear it myself. I talk to her in an age appropriate way about why I don't like make up and don't wear it.

If it was up to me, this would never have come in the house! But it's here now. I could just take it away, but I'm worried that'll make it into a huge thing, I'm not sure if that'll achieve anything other than make her want it more and feel she's been treated unjustly (and, oh, do I remember the times I felt my parents were being unjust to me!)

I suppose I could let her play with it for a few days till she forgets about it and then quietly "lose" it. (Is that cowardly?)

I could impose boundaries around it (what?). She's already said she wants to wear it to school every day and I've said errr... no!

We've been talking a bit about why adults wear make up, and I've told her about how if you wear make up every day, it's a bit like it casts a spell on you and you feel you can't go outside without wearing it, and we talked about how much of a pain that would be if her friend came round to ask her to play, but she missed out because she couldn't just leave the house.

What do I do, oh wise FWR women? I want to just throw the bloody thing away, but I'm worried about creating a bigger deal out of it and making it an even greater object of desire!

The age on the box say 5+ . Who makes this stuff FFS?

Between the ages of about 12-20 I covered myself in makeup everyday and couldn't bear to be seen without it. And it wasn't because I was expressing myself, or being creative, it was because I though I was disgusting and needed to hide my flaws. It was just a small part of my teenage self-loathing of my body, my face, my voice, basically everything about myself, that caused years of misery and self-destructive behaviour. Now with 20 years' perspective I can understand where a lot of these feelings came from, but at the time I had no analysis of patriarchal culture, I only had the relentless message that I needed fixing on every level. I've no idea if having a mum who talked to me more about this stuff, and helped me critique what was going on around me, might have helped or not, but she didn't. She just thought I was a bit vain and incomprehensible.
I don't know if any of that helps the OP, I just wanted to offer a different perspective to all those saying makeup isn't harmful.

You clearly see the wearing of make up as a feminist line to die on. Ie make up is intrinsically bad and a sign of the patriarchy.

I have some sympathy for this view as clearly we are so often socialised to feel more comfortable/attractive/professional etc when wearing make up. But I also think that understanding we've been socialised to believe something doesn't mean we necessarily have to take a stand on each and every one of these things. Skirts, for example. Why on earth is this a woman only thing? Clearly that's socialisation at work. But I still continue to wear skirts and dresses and feel as much a feminist while doing so, even while accepting that's a society thing (and, from what I've followed of the trans argument, this is core to it - a man who wants to wear a dress shouldn't then feel he's actually a woman. there's no physical reason why a man shouldn't wear a dress).

DD loves make up. I came home the other day and she'd done a brilliant job of putting on make up - if she was going for a lovely picasso style portrait. Which, from what I can tell, she was! . She was thrilled with her blue cheeks and the lines she'd drawn in yellow from either eye. But she knows make up is actually for grown ups so she can't wear it as normal and it's certainly not something she wears to school.

She did go through a phase of telling me she wanted to wear make up to look "pretty" but I think I've nipped that in the bud with a) repeated reminders that she's pretty with or without make up b) showing her that b ing pretty isn't as important as being kind and clever and good at the things she loves. She certainly hasn't said it for a while. At least when its out in the open I can address some of the subliminal message she's picking up along the way.

I bet OP never let her host a teddy bears tea party because that would be reinforcing the 'women as domestics' narrative!

Btw currently my daughter aged nearly 12 only wears stage make up for ballet performances. Totally fine with this, you have to be visible on stage.

However she is tall and after putting it on she could easily be mistaken for an older and very attractive young woman.

I wouldn't be keen for her to go out and about made up like that. I would be worried about her. She is still a kid and I feel it's best that she looks like one.

I realise that there are certain creeps that wouldn't be put off either way. But I was thinking of Mandy Smith and of how everyone assumes she was much older to start with because of her appearance.

Give it 2 days then put it up high somewhere out of sight to keep it safe. If she mentions it say she can play with it later and move on. She’ll soon forget about it. She can always use it occasionally as part of dressing up with friends. This is what we’ve done and my 6yo never asks for the 3 sets she’s received over the past few years.

My DD went through a phase at 14.It is more experimenting at this age.She now at almost 16 just uses a bit of mascara and brown eyeshadow if she feels like it.
Non of the women in our family wear makeup ,we've all dabbled when younger but and I expect my DD will be similar.She gave her eyeliner to a male friend.

resisterpersister I think this is a really important topic. I think we all hate to think we are influenced by advertising but we are, even from an early age. Otherwise, why would there be a government plan to ban advertising junk food on TV before 9pm.

I do wear (and like make up) there does seem to be more pressure on young women to be perfectly groomed at all times. However, I don't think we know enough about the process by which (or even if) something that was an individual preference switches to becoming a societal expectation.

I would never make any assumptions about whether an adult woman was a feminist based on her appearance but I was struck that so many responses are based on personal experience rather than any research pro or anti make up for young girls.

I think your daughter is lucky that she has a thoughtful mum who is thinking about how young children absorb stereotypes. Fingers crossed the dressing up box suggestion works and it doesn't become a Big Thing.

why should princesses be boring?

Why? Because it's always bloody princesses. Boys are encouraged to be all sorts of characters and animals. Girls are encouraged to be pretty princesses all the bloody time.

Do you have DC? You surely must be aware of this if so. Here, I put "dress up girls" and "dress up boys" into eBay.

On the first screen for boys, they're offered 6 costumes, of 5 different characters: pirate (x2), firefighter, clown, safari explorer, army soldier.

On the first screen for girls, they're offered a whopping 51 costumes. Every single one of them is a fucking princess.

That's why they're boring. Plus, what princesses have in common with each other is achingly boring, and buying into the beauty myth that's used tor constrain women and girls - they're pretty and they marry princes.

If we passively go along with this stuff, what message are we giving our girls? We're telling them to be passive and pretty, while boys are encouraged to take up space in th eworld, explore and be bold. This stuff matters. It affects our DC. If you think it doesn't, please go do some reading about this. Again, it's basic feminism, surely?

Sure, not all princesses are boring. I read books like The Worst Princess to DD and it seems to have gone in, she thinks princess's job description includes fighting dragons, now. But this takes conscious effort as it's against the message that society's giving our DDs.

what princesses have in common with each other is achingly boring, and buying into the beauty myth that's used tor constrain women and girls - they're pretty and they marry princes.

actually, this is untrue. Have you seen the Disney movie 'Brave?' or even Elsa in Frozen? They are both strong female characters from an insanely popular movie franchise. they are also both princesses.

OP, i think you are the kind of feminist that looks down on what are perceived as 'feminine interests''

Oh, give over. Where have I given that impression? You're making assumptions.

Feminism is about choice

Nah, mate. Liberal feminism is about choice, but liberal feminism is rearranging the deck chairs as far as I'm concerned.

Try this article No, Feminism is not about choice:

"the idea that more choices automatically equate to more freedom is a falsehood. This is essentially just selling neo-liberalism with a feminist twist."

And this one: Feminism 101: What is Choice Feminism?

and tbh you aren't a true feminist for pointing out flaws on other women about the CHOICES they have CHOSEN to make.

Not a true feminist? PMSL. Who made you arbiter of all things feminist?

Please show where I have done this, in any case?

Nowhere on this thread have I said that any women here shouldn't wear make up.

Exploring how make up is harmful and understanding a feminist critique of it, isn't the same thing saying women shouldn't do it. Many feminists might still choose to wear make up as they're too invested in it to break out of it, for whatever reason, even though they understand a feminist critique of it. But just because a woman chooses make up, doesn't make it a feminist choice. Neoliberal bollocks IMO.

Being to critically examine the world around us with a feminist lens is pretty basic feminism, surely. It's about engaging your critical thinking faculties and understanding why things are as they are. What is the actual point in your feminism if you can't do that?

actually, this is untrue. Have you seen the Disney movie 'Brave?' or even Elsa in Frozen?

You didn't understand what I wrote. i said what princesses have in common with each other is being pretty and marrying a prince. I didn't say every single princess story is about this. Do you understand the difference?

I bet OP never let her host a teddy bears tea party because that would be reinforcing the 'women as domestics' narrative!

Prize for the most ridiculous comment on the thread.

I think you may have got lost. AIBU is that way ^

there does seem to be more pressure on young women to be perfectly groomed at all times

I totally agree. It must be really tough growing up being photographed and filmed so often, like being in a goldfish bowl.

Also, the role models - the pop stars, youtubers and actresses are so. so slick. So much more so than when I was young. Even many of the manufactured bands were a little rough round the edges in my day. They had a rawness about them that seems absent today.

There's so much focus on looks, isn't there.

I would put the makeup issue to one side, because you risk your issue with it clouding the message you are sending your daughter.

You hate makeup, it's your prerogative, your daughter will be exposed to it through her life, just as she will be exposed to many negative things, which will include a massive list of things she will have to make choices over. Drugs, smoking, risk taking, dropping litter, giving up her seat on public transport for someone who needs it more.

Teach your daughter critical thinking and to question behaviour she sees from others. Teach her to ask why people make the choices they do and what their influences and motivation might be.

You are right, if you take it away you risk it becoming a desired object, I'd shove it where you keep any other dressing up things.

Tell her why you don't like it, but don't make it forbidden, let her know that she can decide for her self-in an age appropriate way. She is more likely to grow up with feminist values if she understands the reasons.

Shout out for Moana in the princess discussion too. No love interest (other than her family/community and her own ambitions) and she's a fearless adventurer who actively rebels against gender expectations. It's not perfect of course, but that's the sort of princess I can get behind.

Yes, Moana was (mostly) great :)

(I do have some gripes with it but I'll leave it there!)

I don't wear make-up often, probably 4 times a year IF I can be assed, its not about taking the 'problem' away its about helping your daughter learn you can have fun with it but it isn't the be all of everything, I do agree though the teen girls (& some boys) these days with the caked on make-up is ridiculous but thats down to the parents letting there child walk out of the house like that isn't it 🤷🏻‍♀️ personally would never let DD wear make-up like that...

Oh, give over. Where have I given that impression? You're making assumptions.

literally all throughout this thread. you are busy telling women why, by wearing makeup, they are clearly greatly insecure and trying to hide their flaws.

Feminism is about equality between the two sexes. That's the definition of the word. And you can argue your point about makeup is hiding insecurities (true, but not for all cases) and how people are addicted to it, but you are refusing to acknowledge the point that so many people have raised on this thread, women wear makeup for themselves. Because they like the way they can express themselves. Because they love the bright colours. Because it allows them to be unique. Not all women are so insecure that they have had 'a spell cast over them' meaning they can't leave the house.

Liberal feminism is about choice, but liberal feminism is rearranging the deck chairs as far as I'm concerned.

ok. that's your view. doesn't mean mine has to be the same.

Teach your daughter critical thinking and to question behaviour she sees from others. Teach her to ask why people make the choices they do and what their influences and motivation might be.

Yes, I totally agree with this. It's all about critical thinking and understanding why things are the way they are, what can influence our choices, even when we feel like we're making our own mind up, free from influence.

I'm on the same page as you OP. And it shocks me that so many women on a feminist board are STILL arguing that it's their individual choice to wear make up.

If it's an individual choice, why don't we wear green lipstick? Why don't we wear purple foundation? And most pertinently of all, why is it only women who seem to make this individual choice? Why are there so few men who 'just like' putting on make up?

If it's any consolation, my mum has never worn make up in her life (not in any feminist way, she just couldn't be arsed) and I definitely went through phases where I wore tons of it and was quite into it, but I definitely never had the feeling of it being 'necessary' as so many of my friends did. So I think by not wearing it, you are doing a lot already.

Feminism is about equality between the two sexes.

No, feminism is about liberating women from the patriarchal system we currently live in. It's about actively breaking the system, run by men for men.

Anything else is rearranging the deckchairs.

Feminism is Not About Gender Equality

"Neoliberal feminism, which uses terms like gender equality and choice, focuses on individuals rather than systemic sexism, and rejects analysis of how choices impact society . It is at best, misguided, and at worst, used to produce outcomes that are actively anti-feminist and more closely resemble rhetoric from the men’s rights movement than the women’s movement."

If it's an individual choice, why don't we wear green lipstick? Why don't we wear purple foundation?

go ahead, some people do

When you google the definition of feminism, this is what comes up:
'the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes.'
so fighting for gender equality.

why should princesses be boring? OP, i think you are the kind of feminist that looks down on what are perceived as 'feminine interests''.Feminism is about choice, and tbh you aren't a true feminist for pointing out flaws on other women about the CHOICES they have CHOSEN to make.

Have to agree with this. Fair enough she is only 6 and has no need for make up, but what if she grows up and decides she wants to wear make up every day?
I think if it was more socially acceptable a lot more men would wear make up. I know my brother would, he suffered with terrible acne.
Oh and princesses don't have to be boring. Instead of telling her not to get an old, boring princess, why not let her see that actually, princesses can be strong and independent and aren't always rescued by the Prince (won't be hard to find a film or a book with that message) , instead of telling her that princesses are old and boring. Way to write off women there OP.
I hardly ever wear make up now, but when I'm going out I do a full face because I like it. When I was younger I was obsessed and convinced I was going to be a make up artist because I was very good at applying it (I was very good at drawing aswell as it goes). I still get compliments on my make up when I do wear it. I couldn't give a shiny shite who's looking down their nose and judging. Says more about them than it does me.

sleep

I knew, I just BLOODY KNEW as soon as I posted that, that someone would do this.

You KNOW that that is not a norm. About 1% of women have EVER gone out with that kind of make up. You know as well as I do that 99% of women will wear roughly the same make up, neutral eyeshadow, shaded brows, pink/red lipstick/black eyeliner/black mascara because that is what we've been conditioned to wear, so don't derail with such nonsense.