Network Autism thinks gender id develops in foetus (title edited by MNHQ)

[NellieEllie]

This is profoundly disturbing. mobile.twitter.com/networkautism/status/1129320893208047616

I saw someone on Twitter saying that it's "fine because they saw Greta Thunberg talking about how people with Asperger's and autism spectrum disorders are very cynical and evidence focused", but what she didn't seem to register is that some are also very very suggestible. Children are suggestible, disorders or not.

So, I went off looking for evidence of this claim:

*"Occasionally, the hormones that trigger the development of biological sex may not work properly on the brain, reproductive organs and genitals, causing differences between them. This may be caused by:

additional hormones in the mother’s system – possibly as a result of taking medication"*

since the page helpful provides zero citations, and found this 2015 paper Early androgen exposure and human gender development which "critically reviews the available evidence regarding influences of testosterone on human gender-related development". It covers research which links or fails to link sex stereotyped behaviour in children to prenatal androgen exposure. Some studies find a high correlation, other find non at all. It also covers the findings of one research group which "looked at the correlation between amniotic fluid testosterone and a range of characteristics related to ASD" saying that "These studies also merit careful examination, because they are widely cited to support a contribution of early androgen exposure to ASD."

Concludes:

"Thus, although a primary basis for interest in understanding the influences of testosterone on human behavior has been the idea that androgens might contribute to discrepant sex ratios for psychological diagnoses, research in this area has been relatively scant for disorders other than ASD, and for ASD has ultimately produced findings that do not support a contribution from prenatal testosterone exposure. This lack of research, and even the lack of clearly supportive findings, might reflect, in part, the rarity of individuals with both atypical androgen exposure during early development and a gender-linked psychological diagnosis and the lack of a powerful measure of prenatal androgen exposure in individuals without hormone abnormality."

and

"The relationship of finger ratios to prenatal androgen exposure appears to be too weak to be useful in studies attempting to relate prenatal androgen exposure to later behavior [9,16,17], and this review suggests that this may be the case for testosterone measured in amniotic fluid as well. Although one research group has found predicted relationships, others have not. Small sample sizes may have contributed to the failures to find significant effects, but the insignificant correlation that has been reported between testosterone in fetal blood and testosterone in fetal amniotic fluid [55] also does not support the robustness of the amniotic fluid approach."

So, no clear correlation between prenatal Androgen exposure and gender identity disorder, and no clear causal link between either of those things and ASD.

OK, so I went to take a look at the contributors and found Professor Melissa Hines of Cambridge University. In 2011 she spoke at the "woman's word" festival in Cambridge arguing that

"The overall conclusion, based on all these types of research, is that children’s toy preferences relate to the prenatal hormones they were exposed to. Not only do boys tend to play with trucks whereas girls tend to play with dolls, but within girls, those who are less interested in dolls and more interested in trucks tend to have been exposed to higher levels of testosterone during gestation."

Her key publication that she lists is “Prenatal hormones versus postnatal socialization by parents as determinants of male-typical toy play in girls with congenital adrenal hyperplasia” coauthored, amongst others, by Vickie Pasterski. In fact, she authored at least 10 papers with Vickie Pasterski.

Does that name sound familiar? That's because she was the expert witness called upon to over rule social services on the transitioning foster children and in Jay vs Secretary of State for Justice -- getting a GRC on appeal after panel says 'no' three times

So, I think this would merit further probing.

For clarification, does the term ‘prenatal hormones’ refer to androgens/oestrogen's produced by the foetus, or by the mother/carbon-based uterus-bearing reproductive unit?

I get confused because we are often told that these levels are measured in the amniotic fluid. Are these hormones released into the amniotic fluid from the child or from the mother and thus influencing the child’s development from the outside?

In other words - if I’m getting my terminology correct - are prenatal hormones endogenous or exogenous to the foetus?

There doesn't seem to be any conclusive evidence that hormone exposure in utero has any effect on behaviour. This article sums it up well.

slate.com/human-interest/2010/10/rebecca-jordan-young-s-masterful-critique-of-the-research-on-the-relationship-between-testosterone-and-sex-difference.html

It's from 2010, but I don't know if there's been any more conclusive research since.

In the early 1970s, for instance, one study reported that boys whose mothers took a synthetic estrogen, which was thought to prevent complications in pregnancy, tended later on to show less masculine behavior like lower assertiveness or aggression. Soon, however, animal research found that testosterone converted to estrogen in the brain actually seems to do the opposite—to make boys act more typically masculine. And soon after that, the reversal showed up in human research, too: Another study suggested that boys exposed prenatally to a synthetic estrogen might show more masculine behavior, according to Jordan-Young. The data on synthetic estrogen and progesterone exposures are complicated. But what’s striking, in Jordan-Young’s telling, is that the researchers’ findings tended to dovetail suspiciously well with their assumptions.

From this it looks as though researchers often find what they want to find - and I wouldn't trust anything that Vickie Pasterski was involved with.

This is a tweet from ‘Network Autism’ not the National Autism Society. They’re not the same thing as far as I know so you need to ask MNHQ to edit your thread title.

I'm amazed how this gender pseudoscience has become gospel in such a short time

"I saw someone on Twitter saying that it's "fine because they saw Greta Thunberg talking about how people with Asperger's and autism spectrum disorders are very cynical and evidence focused", but what she didn't seem to register is that some are also very very suggestible. Children are suggestible, disorders or not."

True - and Greta is doing her fellow aspies a disservice by relying on tropes like that. It's no better than saying we're all non-verbal maths wizards.

I don't work in the field, but being on the spectrum myself, I think we need to be wary of positive as well as negative stereotyping. I personally know several autistic adults who are absolutely adamant that TWAW and will cherrypick / ignore evidence to support this conclusion. I've tried reasoned debate based on facts and evidence; it just doesn't work. You can't debate someone who has already decided what the outcome is.

We're not uniquely immune to illogical thinking - we just do better with clear and unambiguous information. For some of us, it doesn't matter if that information is factually true or not. I can see why the gendercult appeals to some autistic people with its offer of certainty and black-and-white stereotyping of complex and nuanced human behaviour.

Re 'Network Autism' - they say they are 'provided by' @ autism (NAS) in their Twitter bio, so I think OP is correct.

TirisfalPumpkin thanks, I didn’t know that about this org and will be writing to NAS, not that they’ve ever actually helped us in any practical way in the first place! Are they just another charity that’s there to create ‘awareness’ and print pamphlets and not really ‘do’ anything?

I also agree with what you said above about those on the spectrum not being immune to illogical thinking, it’s important to say. There are a few positive stereotypes I think are unhelpful- Amy Schumer saying her husband is autistic so can’t ever lie to her etc etc

Reading through a few more of the tweets from @ networkautism covering the event - it seems it is not universally awful and there is some good stuff on autism and relationships, autism-specific vulnerabilities to abuse/staying safe in relationships, and autistic takes on the labelling of sexualities.

The gender stuff is just horrendous, though.

This is organised by ‘Network Autism’. They are funded by the NAS, but I don’t know whether the NAS has direct control of their activities. It seems to be a network to share information. However, there is a difference between providing a space to discuss issues (the MN forum - no claim to expertise) and presenting information at a conference where participants are presented as experts.

The information presented was sloppy (confusing sex and sexual orientation is pretty bad) and I think it’s fair to ask the NAS how they were involved and whether they stand by the information presented.

Jessica - I'm honestly not sure. I've never had any success contacting the NAS, they just ignore my emails (which isn't great for a charity representing people who often don't handle telephones well!)

Just going by twitter it looks like it's the autism professionals' wing of NAS; they also have a research wing, and then there's 'National Autistic Taskforce' who seem to be retweeted a fair amount/maybe linked and is led by autistic people directly. One octopus, many tentacles?

network.autism.org.uk/about-community/network-rules-and-guidelines

Here are their guidelines - it really looks as though it is an online forum funded by the NAS.

I’ve absolutely had enough of this shite now, my ds’s school did a week on transgender, what my autistic son took from that was, it’s a choice, it’s easy... just pick what you want to be? Like a hair cut. No joke. Followed by me showing him a video on YouTube of a penis being changed into a vagina. I felt I had no choice, to show him how serious it is. I honestly feel these “awareness” talks are promoting it. My son is going to no more at school.

Thingybob and KarenTheCashRegister and everyone else. I think you are absolutely right. I had the chance to listen to Wenn a while ago (for a massive fee).

I read up in advance and decided to give the lecture a miss. It seems very sad that little old me with little scientific knowledge could see this sounded decidedly off and yet a big national society doesn't!

It feels like because people are presenting as trans and some trans people have views about why it is so, we are accepting these views.

Do they know what ‘gender’ is?

Are they actually talking about personality traits which may or may not be apparent in the child as they develop, depending on family, social and environmental influences?

There are many serious questions that need to be asked about this.

This is a professional body sharing completely unsubstantiated nonsense.

Here I have example b.

The speaker actually admits it's totally anecdotal. LOTS OF NON AUTISTIC PEOPLE FEEL THIS WAY! It's a totally NORMAL way to feel. It's not different at all. FFS.

Is ‘not being attracted to someone until you know them well’ considered so special it now needs an entire orientation to itself?

What the fuck?

Does this mean everyone not ‘demisexual’ is expected to drop their knickers the moment they meet?

What fresh hell is this demisexual label? How the fuck does that need a special term?

And the NAS and Network Autism - I have no words for them that wouldn't invoke the banhammer.

An autism support group I’ve found helpful over the last few years has completely succumbed. Autistic people are said to be less susceptible to stereotyping and more likely to already be outsiders, which somehow translates to very likely to know from a young age that they are transgender.

This is a group run by autistic women originally set up to support people to parent autistic girls. Now there isn’t consensus about what makes someone a girl...

It’s very upsetting.

Doesn’t this go against the very basic idea that if you meet one asd person, you have met one asd person. Meaning that not all people with asd can fit into a neat little box of what we believe them to be.

I have had a chat with my DS (that has asd) about what it feels like to be attracted to someone and it is such a vague concept for someone that deals in black and white.

Plus there is the sensory and loss of control element. If attraction and love mean losing control and strange feelings, I am pretty sure he will say no thank you to that.

DS will be ‘attracted’ to people who share his special interests but don’t bother him with conversation. Is this even ‘attraction’ in the same sense though? It is all so confusing as a parent so god knows what DS will make of it all.

DS is not Demi-anything. How can these statements be just bandied about as though they are truth? To make throw these things around is really dangerous for children that are susceptible and easily influenced.

Katvon The person who did that presentation is autistic and they became distressed when questioned about their content. As they are obviously vulnerable it is almost impossible to challenge anything without being accused of bullying (and worse). They have tweeted about the event if you are interested.

The other things that appear to have been challenged on the day (that came from different contributors) were;

The definition used of Lesbian : A woman (or woman-aligned person) who is attracted to other women (or women-aligned person)

The use of the genderbread person

And intersex people being used to demonstrate that sex is not binary.

I linked to this slide on another thread. It is a satirical graphic designed to highlight unnecessary surgical interventions on intersex children.

This appears to have been used at the conference by a Doctoral Research Fellow in a presentation that gave an overview of the scientific literature on the formation of gender identity.

Some of the stuff being peddled to a vulnerable minority really does terrify me and being unable to question anything because it comes from the same vulnerable minority terrifies me even more. If I were the parent of an autistic child/young adult, I would do everything in my power to prevent them coming into contact with such twaddle.

For clarification, does the term ‘prenatal hormones’ refer to androgens/oestrogen's produced by the foetus, or by the mother/carbon-based uterus-bearing reproductive unit?

By the mother, if I read it correctly. But it was 2am so I'll read it again more closely later.

Katvon The person who did that presentation is autistic and they became distressed when questioned about their content.

I think the person who questioned the content is also autistic.

What the fucking fuckery fresh new hell is this????

This should have been handed out to all contributors before attending the conference and a signature obtained that all had read and understood the contents.

A gendered world creates a gendered brain.

The comments about non verbal children is tantamount to child abuse.

sfonline.barnard.edu/neurogenderings/eight-things-you-need-to-know-about-sex-gender-brains-and-behavior-a-guide-for-academics-journalists-parents-gender-diversity-advocates-social-justice-warriors-tweeters-facebookers-and-ever/