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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

My complaint to Glasgow Life re sports centres

238 replies

ImNotNigel · 23/04/2019 22:08

( NC for obvious reasons )

Glasgow Life are the Council organisation that run sports centres in Glasgow. They have been in the papers about their policy of allowing men into women only facilities

www.heraldscotland.com/news/17588777.cross-dress-males-to-be-allowed-in-women-only-gym-sessions-in-glasgow/?ref=twtrec

I am a member so I went tonight to complaint to the manager at the local centre. He was a young man of around 30.

It took about 5 mins of patient questioning from me for him to admit it was indeed council policy. He kept maintaining that there were no mixed sex or unisex facilities, but eventually he acknowledged it.

So I asked him if I could go right then and use the male changing room, ( I’m an XX person for the avoidance of doubt ).

He told me no, because I wasn’t “going through the process of gender change”. Now the council policy specifically says this is not required, but decided not to argue this further.

I told him that I indentified as agender, which counted as trans. He looked very perplexed by this, and questioned me for another 5 mins, arguing that I wasn’t. Although he agreed that if I was, I could use the Male changing room.

He waxed lyrical about the individual cubicles for showers and changing ( within the Male changing room ). I checked that their was no requirement on me ( since I was identifying as male tonight ) to use these and I could walk around naked in the men’s changing room if I wanted to, and would this be fine.

He said “ We were told in our training that that would never happen, because you would be ashamed of your body”. So I asked if he was suggesting that I should be ashamed of my body.

He knew he was in a hole but he kept on digging.

Then he went for the sympathy vote, pointlessly appealing to my female socialisation . He tilted his head and declared

“ You know it’s hard for people like you and me to understand what it feels like to be trans and how hard it must be. So the council has to allowed them access, it’s the law”.

[ feeble attempt at forced teaming there too ]

I reminded him that I was trans myself and asked which law. He replied “ Well you know more that me as you have read up on it “ .

I asked about their Equality Impact Assessment and the about the effects on other centre users, who didn’t want to share showers and changing areas with a person of the opposite sex. He said “ Well they wouldn’t be the opposite sex would they ? “.

I guessed that was in his training too.

By the end he was losing his temper, so ( perhaps wisely ) said “ I’m not talking to you anymore, you need to speak to someone in legal”.

He went to reception to look up a number and said to his two female colleagues ( who were trying not to snigger ) “ For fucks sake, now she’s telling me she’s trans “.

I said “ I can’t believe you are questioning my gender identity. Please stop saying that, it’s very offensive “.

He threw a paper at me with a number and stormed off.

It was entertaining but rather unsatisfactory. I think I can guess who did their training.

So it’s the Council Legal Services tomorrow, that should be better.

And of course I will complain about being told that I’m not trans. Repeatedly.

I guess the training didn’t cover that bit.

OP posts:
TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 26/04/2019 21:34

Not really surprising they haven't had any complaints if they aren't telling people.

Quite. And the people who do know about it, probably through reading the policy..also know that complaining can get them reported for a bloody hate crime. And people don't wish to have nonsense police interviews for wanting spaces free of penis? Colour me shocked!

TigerCubScout · 26/04/2019 21:43

I suppose the 'good' thing about the policy is that they have specifically (according to the newspaper article) mentioned cross dressing - this will make it easier for people to say "WTF, I'm not having that!"

BoomBoomsCousin · 26/04/2019 21:46

"I dare say that it wouldn't be very popular and the school may get some issues from the council if we had to say anything to the contrary of their policy. Any ideas?"

Does the legal requirement for schools to provide single sex toilet and washing facilities apply to Scotland as well as England and Wales? If so, maybe point that out to your school so they can use that when talking to the council?

missmartini · 26/04/2019 21:59

@BoomBoomsCousin

I'll be perfectly honest with you and I have no idea. I'm very naive into all this legislation and only just starting to really take on how much there is out there about this. I will do my research and see from there.

Primary 5 (9 year olds) are the ones who attend the lessons. I don't teach that stage and unsure how changing/ toilets work, I'll find out though.

ImNotNigel · 26/04/2019 22:00

Helpful document from Fair play for Women giving advice to service providers who want to provide female-only changing rooms.

fairplayforwomen.com/changing_rooms/?fbclid=IwAR1OQwgjLLrNbdvovPIIfadkWrHzFM7oOgFAvbhM3CBfkVmptnG3mZhvxdM

As you will see, GL are completely dishonest when they say that their policy is the law. Single sex changing rooms are perfectly legal.

OP posts:
ScottishDoll · 26/04/2019 22:05

forwomen.scot/

wgscotland.org.uk/

ImNotNigel · 26/04/2019 22:09

Many schools send only girls or boys as the smaller council pools often have only one group changing room. So for example the girls go for a 6 week block and then the boys. At bigger pools they have changing villages with individual cubicles.

I think some schools prefer to use the group change because it’s easier to corral them all and they are less likely to lose items. I don’t need to tell you how slow they can be and there’s always a pressure to get ready for the time the bus is due to leave.

AFAIK the children use the toilets which are used by the general public . Parents will assume these are single sex.

OP posts:
TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 27/04/2019 11:28

I suppose the 'good' thing about the policy is that they have specifically (according to the newspaper article) mentioned cross dressing - this will make it easier for people to say "WTF, I'm not having that!"

Yes I thought this was odd actually. Usually theres as much waffle as possible, especially when transactivist type groups have a hand in policy. We know crossdressers are classed as trans, but we say this and people think we are off it as no way would that be meant. Yet here, laid out bare, is the fact that crossdressing men are classed the same as like, transsexuals.

SonicVersusGynaephobia · 28/04/2019 18:43

I suppose the 'good' thing about the policy is that they have specifically (according to the newspaper article) mentioned cross dressing - this will make it easier for people to say "WTF, I'm not having that!"

Yes, the unnecessary explicit inclusion of cross-dressers actually made me wonder if this policy was written by someone at GL/GCC who doesn't agree with it and was desperately trying to get The Message out.

Too optimistic?

ImNotNigel · 01/05/2019 17:55

Update - I had a long meeting with an Officer from Glasgow City Council. They are reviewing their policy as they have had a large number of complaints, many of which have raised similar issues.

So if any of you would like to complain, please do so. This policy covers all the Council owned buildings, art galleries and museums and these are used by many visitors to Glasgow, as well as Locals.

OP posts:
titchy · 01/05/2019 17:56

Excellent! Well done 👏

Ereshkigal · 01/05/2019 17:58

Brilliant, well done!

ImNotNigel · 01/05/2019 18:01

I’m also delighted to have received an apology from a senior manager for the way I was treated at the local sports centre.

OP posts:
littlbrowndog · 01/05/2019 18:03

Good work Nigel

youllhavehadyourtea · 01/05/2019 18:04

they have had a large number of complaints,

Thought it was the opposite? Hmm

Brilliant work Nigel.

ImNotNigel · 01/05/2019 18:04

As MN FWR regulars say, sunlight has been very useful. There was a lot of back tracking in the form of

“ Well although the policy says X it actually means Y. We need to rewrite it - it wasn’t meant to be a public document”.

OP posts:
ImNotNigel · 01/05/2019 18:06

Regarding number of complaints - yes I noticed that too. Hardly any last Friday and now a large number. Funny that. It can’t all be MNers.

OP posts:
truthisarevolutionaryact · 01/05/2019 18:09

Well done Nigel. Flowers
It just goes to show how pernicious this gaslighting and loosening of boundaries is when ordinary people (council workers, sportsmen/women etc) end up arguing that it's fine for cross dressing men to undress in front of women and children. They really believe that it's a legitimate position.

So glad that there has been an outbreak of common decency.

ImNotNigel · 01/05/2019 18:12

They have obviously had a lot of public outrage about the cross dressing bit and they admit it hadn’t been thought through.

Which should of course be written on their foreheads with a sharpie.

OP posts:
truthisarevolutionaryact · 01/05/2019 18:14

Well - that's where 'Acceptance without exception' leads you. Every predator in the land assumes this means them!

UnexpectedItemInShaggingArea · 01/05/2019 18:14

Wonderful OP. Just wonderful. So so so pleased.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 01/05/2019 18:15

It's unfortunate for them that they originally used "cross dressers" as presumably their new guidance will have to include details on how to tell a cross dresser from a trans person ...

VickyEadie · 01/05/2019 18:17

They have obviously had a lot of public outrage about the cross dressing bit and they admit it hadn’t been thought through.

You see, this is what I do not get. "it hadn't been thought through" - that they were proposing to allow men into areas where women and girls are naked and vulnerable? Purely on the basis that they either say they are women or even merely that they like dressing in women's (sic) clothes?

Are the people who made this decision entirely thick, that they couldn't spend a few minutes just thinking about it? Before any policy change, when I led schools, I used to spend feckin' *hours' with my SLT, whole staff, governing body, etc. thinking through the ramifications, what could go wrong, risk assessing where appropriate, etc.

It's astonishing that these things are happening - not just in Glasgow, but all over the place.

Cuntysnark · 01/05/2019 18:18

Excellent!

Michelleoftheresistance · 01/05/2019 18:29

Well done! Flowers

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