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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

My complaint to Glasgow Life re sports centres

238 replies

ImNotNigel · 23/04/2019 22:08

( NC for obvious reasons )

Glasgow Life are the Council organisation that run sports centres in Glasgow. They have been in the papers about their policy of allowing men into women only facilities

www.heraldscotland.com/news/17588777.cross-dress-males-to-be-allowed-in-women-only-gym-sessions-in-glasgow/?ref=twtrec

I am a member so I went tonight to complaint to the manager at the local centre. He was a young man of around 30.

It took about 5 mins of patient questioning from me for him to admit it was indeed council policy. He kept maintaining that there were no mixed sex or unisex facilities, but eventually he acknowledged it.

So I asked him if I could go right then and use the male changing room, ( I’m an XX person for the avoidance of doubt ).

He told me no, because I wasn’t “going through the process of gender change”. Now the council policy specifically says this is not required, but decided not to argue this further.

I told him that I indentified as agender, which counted as trans. He looked very perplexed by this, and questioned me for another 5 mins, arguing that I wasn’t. Although he agreed that if I was, I could use the Male changing room.

He waxed lyrical about the individual cubicles for showers and changing ( within the Male changing room ). I checked that their was no requirement on me ( since I was identifying as male tonight ) to use these and I could walk around naked in the men’s changing room if I wanted to, and would this be fine.

He said “ We were told in our training that that would never happen, because you would be ashamed of your body”. So I asked if he was suggesting that I should be ashamed of my body.

He knew he was in a hole but he kept on digging.

Then he went for the sympathy vote, pointlessly appealing to my female socialisation . He tilted his head and declared

“ You know it’s hard for people like you and me to understand what it feels like to be trans and how hard it must be. So the council has to allowed them access, it’s the law”.

[ feeble attempt at forced teaming there too ]

I reminded him that I was trans myself and asked which law. He replied “ Well you know more that me as you have read up on it “ .

I asked about their Equality Impact Assessment and the about the effects on other centre users, who didn’t want to share showers and changing areas with a person of the opposite sex. He said “ Well they wouldn’t be the opposite sex would they ? “.

I guessed that was in his training too.

By the end he was losing his temper, so ( perhaps wisely ) said “ I’m not talking to you anymore, you need to speak to someone in legal”.

He went to reception to look up a number and said to his two female colleagues ( who were trying not to snigger ) “ For fucks sake, now she’s telling me she’s trans “.

I said “ I can’t believe you are questioning my gender identity. Please stop saying that, it’s very offensive “.

He threw a paper at me with a number and stormed off.

It was entertaining but rather unsatisfactory. I think I can guess who did their training.

So it’s the Council Legal Services tomorrow, that should be better.

And of course I will complain about being told that I’m not trans. Repeatedly.

I guess the training didn’t cover that bit.

OP posts:
AncientLights · 26/04/2019 15:21

If they've had very few complaints so far, can that be because not many people know about it or have thought through the implications? This is the way this stuff seems to be expected to work: agitate for change from within, get very few supporters to do whatever it is so people think it's of little consequence to them, get laws changed and then, when the law is passed and women's changing rooms are full of wanking perverts it's too late to complain.

youllhavehadyourtea · 26/04/2019 15:21

Meanwhile all GL staff have been asked to retweet this statement regarding the policy

www.glasgowlife.org.uk/news/statement-regarding-equal-access-to-sport-facilities

retweet - on their own personal twitter accounts? wtf??!!

Melroses · 26/04/2019 16:00

they told me that they have received very few complaints this week about this

How many do they want? Is there some sort of numerical threshold for common sense and compliance with the law?

Tunnockswafer · 26/04/2019 16:06

It’s not surprising there are few complaints when you know what they plan to do if you complain.

ImNotNigel · 26/04/2019 16:06

Could I also point out that Glasgow Life also run museums in Glasgow , such as Kelvingrove Art Galleries and the Transport Museum. Lots of people from outside Glasgow use these.

Also Arts venues like the City Halls.

I know these have no shower and changing facilities, but many visitors like to encounter a person of the opposite sex in the toilets there. They have cubicles which do not extend to the floor and ceiling.

OP posts:
ImNotNigel · 26/04/2019 16:12

I thought that too Tunnocks. Which is why I decided to complain in principle about the policy rather than one individual or their actions. And since I’ve committed no crime, it can’t be a hate crime.

And since I’m trans, I’m now apparently one of the most opressed minorities in the country. Which is a nice change.

OP posts:
Ereshkigal · 26/04/2019 16:47

retweet - on their own personal twitter accounts? wtf??!!

Batshit. What on earth do they think they're trying to prove?

InTheHeatofLisbon · 26/04/2019 16:53

You know I think you're on to something, talking about using the men's changing rooms. If we all, en masse, began encroaching on male spaces and eroding men's rights to privacy I'm fairly sure that policy would be ditched like a hot tattie!

I can feel a wee visit to a few places in Glasgow coming on this weekend with a few female friends Grin (once I've been to the football where thankfully the toilets ARE still segregated by sex)

youllhavehadyourtea · 26/04/2019 17:36

Batshit. What on earth do they think they're trying to prove?

Apaprntly this instruction went out yesterday, from Glasgow Life to all staff linking to the statement they made - retweet if you use Twitter.

Back foot or what?

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 26/04/2019 18:03

Brilliant work OP.

Manfriday had the right idea.

Also, any transperson with male biology using the women's changing rooms is by definition someone who gives absolutely no shits about the boundaries and consent of women and girls. Surely no trans person can be unaware now that some women and young girls object.

So, by definition any trans person there gives no shits if a pubescent young girl would feel scared or uncomfortable by their presence.

This is why Miranda self-excludes - because he understands this and gives a shit.

Given this is the case, the mens is surely safer. After all, as we are so often told, NAMALT - not all men want to override the consent and boundaries of women and girls. All the ones who aren't like that will be in the mens now. They'll both be mixed sex, but one mixed sex option will be considerably safer than the other.

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 26/04/2019 18:05

Of course, most people don't know that changing rooms are segregated by gender not sex and are mixed sex, because they still think 'woman' and 'man' mean sex not gender.

This is how they get away with it. Because people are, in essence, being lied to by these organisations and are unaware.

ImNotNigel · 26/04/2019 18:30

That’s an excellent point about safety Ineedacupofteadesperately.

And yes, people are being lied to. I told the manager that when we signed up our children for GL membership, we were not told that the changing areas and showers were mixed sex.

He replied that we don’t have to tell you.

The arrogance is staggering.

I’d love to see the reaction if Glasgow city council suggested that all school toilets/ changing rooms should now be open to any member of the public of either sex to use as they wished. But it’s fine when it’s sports centres.

OP posts:
Ineedacupofteadesperately · 26/04/2019 18:34

He replied that we don’t have to tell you.

That is terrifying. Really? When it comes to parents making decisions about their children? Really? I am flabbergasted.

ImNotNigel · 26/04/2019 18:40

Indeed. Flabbergasted is a good word.

Until he told me two mins later that I wasn’t trans. Repeatedly.

Then I was even more flabbergasted. To be told this by beardy woke dude bro Council manager, who should know all about “ acceptance without exception”. Because I’m sure that was covered on the training .

OP posts:
ImNotNigel · 26/04/2019 18:44

Oh and I checked with some children’s sports organsisations who book this sports facility every week - they haven’t told them either. So it’s not covered in their risk Assessments.

This is an issue for their liability insurance . The Council self insure up to a certain amount but I’m sure as hell that the local sports clubs don’t.

OP posts:
InTheHeatofLisbon · 26/04/2019 18:52

I’d love to see the reaction if Glasgow city council suggested that all school toilets/ changing rooms should now be open to any member of the public of either sex to use as they wished.

North Lanarkshire tried that shit recently. They backtracked rapidly when challenged. Very fucking rapidly.

ImNotNigel · 26/04/2019 19:11

Oh I totally missed that.

Honesty how stupid can you get! Invite all the local men in to pee with the school girls - what could possibly go wrong ?

OP posts:
JackyHolyoake · 26/04/2019 19:12

Someone needs to make Glasgow Life aware f Equality Act 2010, Schedule 3 [Services and public functions: exceptions],
Part 7 [Separate, single and concessionary services, etc] sections
26 [Separate services for the sexes],
27 [single sex services] and
28 [gender reassignment].

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/schedule/3

Datun · 26/04/2019 19:42

He replied that we don’t have to tell you.

Fucking A!!!

Is that going to be the response if someone gets assaulted?

InTheHeatofLisbon · 26/04/2019 19:52

Sorry not open to any member of the public (guilty of not reading slowly enough!) NLs plan was to introduce self ID for toilets and changing rooms for pupils and staff.

That's what got squashed.

missmartini · 26/04/2019 20:09

@ImNotNigel

First time posting on this board and wanted to thank you for making me aware of this. I teach in a Glasgow City Council school (stay in a different authority) and never realised this. One of classes attend swimming lessons at a local council pool. I'll be filling in the online form and informing my head teacher straight away for implications to our risk assessment. I also think it's imperative that our parents know about this also so they can make their feelings known to the council (if they do wish) I'm not sure how to do that yet coming from a school perspective. I dare say that it wouldn't be very popular and the school may get some issues from the council if we had to say anything to the contrary of their policy. Any ideas?

Goosefoot · 26/04/2019 20:26

Not really surprising they haven't had any complaints if they aren't telling people.

RedToothBrush · 26/04/2019 21:12

He replied that we don’t have to tell you.

Can he put that in writing? And sign it?

If he can't, why can't he?

ImNotNigel · 26/04/2019 21:24

MissMartini

I’m sorry I don’t know the answer. But if you inform your HT, she needs to adjust the risk assessment accordingly. And if she doesn’t know how to do that, I assume she will ask the education department. Who I bet you a mars bar haven’t even considered this as an issue.

I’m assuming it’s P7s who change in a dedicated changing room just for your group but use the same toilets as the general public therefore potentially unisex. Like you, I’m wondering what parents will think about this .

OP posts:
TigerCubScout · 26/04/2019 21:30

2. Everyone who teaches at a Glasgow area school ( including private schools ) , because this will have to be factored into their risk assessment

Anyone with a child in a Glasgow school should ask the school if a risk assessment has been done - just a casual question. If a few parents from each school do it then the questions will be passed up the line.

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