Transgender rights in Ireland -- what's going on?

[Lamaha]

This is reposted from another thread, quoting @Nobodysblackerthanme:

spunout.ie/life/article/recommendations-gender-recognition-act

"The report also recommended that a legal process be put in place for cases where there is not consent from both parents or it is not possible or safe to get consent."

@Nobody said: "Ireland likes to think itself as being ahead of the curve in whatever is trending (smoking ban, plastic bag tax) . I think this is just another example."

I have to say, I haven't noticed any of this, I didn't even know the law had changed in favour of TRA's. If anything, in practical terms, in daily life, it all seems pretty old-school where I live. I haven't come across any mixed sex loos, not even in Dublin.

Are Ireland's TRAs just not as aggressive as elsewhere? Is it sneakily creeping in? What is really going on? How did this happen?
If they start teaching it in school I'll be going ballistic!

Sneakily creeping in I think. Although if you attempt to offer any type of GC opinion you will be villified.

They are teaching this in my DD's secondary school, under SPHE and RSE
This is the teachers' resource guide sphe.ie/downloads/resources/LGBT-English-Print.pdf (sorry if that's not a clicky link, I don't know how to do them on the app)
There are lessons for Junior and Senior cycle on Transgenderism.
It seems fairly mild and is really up to the teacher how the deep the lesson goes into it- however if you follow the trail of supporting resources ....
It's sponsored by BelongTo and TENI. I don't know about who funds them but the TENI site in its publications section features Stonewall Scotland, GIRES & Gendered Intelligence. www.teni.ie/page.aspx?contentid=118

It is happening in our schools - 2 girls in my DDs year briefly came out as trans (for about a week) but it seems it was an attention seeking stunt.
Another local secondary school is very woke, has several trans kids and I believe they are allowed to use the toilets of their choosing - I don't know about sports participation.
There is a school in the south east - previously a single sex girls school which changed to be a mixed sex school to accommodate a transboy who wished to remain in the school with their friends - this was hailed as oh so progressive by the speakers from BelongTo & TENI who told us this at a talk in my workplace. They wouldn't name the school as they didn't wish to "out" the child.

By the by - in my DD's school they have skipped the chapter on transgenderism!

www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/supporting-transgender-students-in-schools-34602473.html
This article is old but interesting about how TENI advise & train schools.

Their guidelines also state :
Single-gender activities: Separate activities for boys and girls, both sporting and academic, should be reduced or eliminated.
Not very fair on girls that ? Particularly around sports.

Thank goodness my youngest is doing LC so I don't have to deal with this. Mind you, she's quite woke so I worry about peer influences in 3rd level. My older two are very GC from listening to me! Dh thinks I'm exaggerating and spending too much time online (he has a point about that, to be fair )

You may find this information from Transgender Trend very helpful here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3559214-Transgender-Trend-Schools-Guidance-Safeguarding-Concerns

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I went to a mixed school in the 80s and the misogynistic bullying that went on, totally unchallenged by staff, left a lifelong impression on me. The disgusting sexual slurs and threats were constant and seemed to be accepted by all.
For that reason I insisted on a girl only school for my two daughters and they have both done fantastically. They are confident and have achieved a social position in their young lives that no one in my family has done before. It breaks my heart the option for very young women to begin their civic lives and have their chance to learn and achieve in an environment free from misogyny is coming to an end.

Are Ireland's TRAs just not as aggressive as elsewhere? Is it sneakily creeping in? What is really going on? How did this happen?

It crept!
TRA's gender self-id ;egislation success in Ireland was used to leverage Scotland (successfully) & then England & Wales.

Its been held up in England & Wales. There is a pushback & challenges in Scotland as policies are being embedded.

I really thought I'd never say this, but I am grateful for the catholic ethos at my children's school. My preference would have been multi or non denominational but my options locally were limited. The religion is not to heavy, but the board and management are definitely a ittle conservative. In these times I see this as a major plus.

Still work to do in Ireland as the self ID laws excluded prisons and religious things - priests nuns

Strangely the focus seems to have moved to schools though

Haven't read the other thread but that poster is right about Ireland and how it sees itself and with Leo at the Helm he will race to stand behind transactivism I'd say.

He likes to see himself as pushing back the boundaries, but dare I say it, as an Educated, Privileged, Wealthy, Man in his early forties, he has not experienced a fraction of the prejudice that the average woman on a very modest income (or benefits) has. Whether that be an uneducated woman struggling with motherhood or a feminist trying to be heard or an educated professional woman looking for equal pay and equal say at work.. Yeh he's gay and he's half INdian in a white country but his parents were well respected doctors and he came to power as a publicly gay man. Show me a single mother on benefits trying to get back in the work place or a rape victim trying to be heard who has experienced less prejudice than Leo Varadker. HIs voice will be heard. What about ordinary women? He sees himself as proof that all prejudice is gone. He loves that fairy tale. Defending women against a minority (and one that is LBGT +/-) is not something he can comprehend. Not something he wants to try to comprehend.

I knew we had self-ID here. I wouldn't object if it was self-ID AFTER surgery.

Many of my friends here are woker than woke. Ironically many work in STEM. It’s like Ireland has swung from conservative to people seeing themselves as ultra liberal. That means not using critical thinking on many issues. The gay dads case recently was a case in point. I didn’t hear anybody mention the surrogate mother. It’s as though the fact that a womAn has to give birth is irrelevant & inconvenient

Still work to do in Ireland as the self ID laws excluded prisons

Under current Irish law you can't move prisons if you are in the prison of one sex you cannot be transferred to the prison of the other sex as its down to warrant issued by the court (although thats probably ripe for an ECHR case)

The court could decide to issue a warrant for a transwoman to a womens prison, theres nothing stopping it and if you read pg 18 and 19 of this pdf (from a few months after self ID) its said that they go on whats on a persons birth cert which with self ID is changeable

www.iprt.ie/files/IPRT_Out_on_the_Inside_2016_EMBARGO_TO_1030_Feb_02_2016.pdf

Francis Fitzgerald (when she was minister for justice) confirmed here its based on "legal identity" www.inis.gov.ie/en/JELR/Pages/PQ-24-01-2017-106

interesting thanks miri

irish womens prisons can expect to have some male rapists in with them soon then

same as the UK

this recent thread has links which may be of interest discussing Irish TRA & Repeal the 8th:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3556864-wokeus-dei

Watching (not weird lurking, just learning)

Did anyone else see that the USI and TCDSU are campaigning for an informed consent model in Ireland aka hormones on demand trinitynews.ie/2018/01/tcdsu-and-usi-protest-for-transgender-healthcare/

irish womens prisons can expect to have some male rapists in with them soon then

same as the UK

It could happen in theory, yes. However, it could be a very long wait for an example to appear.

Ireland's prison population is far smaller as a proportion of population than Britain's prison population - about 80 per 100,000 compared to 140 per 100,000. (Btw I use Britain advisedly because England & Wales have broadly similar rates to Scotland, whereas NI is much lower and similar to Ireland's). Only a fraction of those prisoners are (convicted) rapists, of course.

Also, Ireland's trans population appears to be far smaller than the UK's, though estimates are so fuzzy it's hard to tell for sure. I can't find the stats now, but a report out last year showed that even with one of the most straightforward self ID processes in the world, Ireland has been processing around 100 applications a year to change legal gender. For a population of 4.8 million, that works out at 0.002% of the population applying per year. If the usual estimates of trans population are applied (e.g., UK govt is using estimates of between 0.3% and 0.7%), one would expect the trans population of Ireland to be way higher: around 150,000 - 350,000. If the trans population of Ireland really was that large, then far more than 100 people a year would fill in the short self ID form.

So between a small prison population and a small trans population, it could be a very long time before a rapist prisoner applies to be housed in a women's prison in Ireland. I hope so, at any rate.

Not necessarily trans though as soon as the men twig on they can be transferred to the women's estate they will start, multiple reasons for this being desirable eg man who is bullied abused in men's prison will be much safer with women.

I mean before you even get to the sex stuff.

The thing is saying 'I'm a woman' doesn't render you infertile, there is obvious risk of pregnancy which no one wants, yet this risk is never ever mentioned.

Thanks for that @miri1985 - both the prison info & the Trinity SU link. The trinners lot are as woke as bejaysus

A friend of mine works in a men's prison (in Dublin) and he tells me they have a couple of transwomen. They are segregated from the other prisoners. Decisions are made on a case by case basis, but transwomen in women's prisons don't seem to be a thing here, at least not yet. I thought that prisons were segregated by sex in Ireland and an exception to the gender recognition act?

Decisions are made on a case by case basis, but transwomen in women's prisons don't seem to be a thing here, at least not yet. I thought that prisons were segregated by sex in Ireland and an exception to the gender recognition act?

If decisions are made on 'case by case basis' then the prison service cannot be considered to be housing prisoners based on sex.

It seems likely that there is already policy creep & this will likely continue.

allowing 'case by case' consideration means that some convicted males will be considered females by the authorities.

Sorry I meant where the transwomen would go in the male prison was decided case by case, so in with the other men or segregated. As far as I know putting transwomen in with women hasn't happened and isn't expected to happen as prisons are one of the exceptions to the act. But as I say I don't know much about it, just what my prison warden friend tells me.