WPUK meeting in London 20 May with Meghan Murphy, Julie Bindel, Selina Todd

[PlonitbatPlonit]

Tickets on sale now for London meeting just announced. Looks like a great meeting.

www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/a-womans-place-is-back-in-town-tickets-59993907392

debbie and ewe so lovely to meet you

Maya you were amazing, such a great speech. "By gender they mean sex"

I thought Selina Todd was extraordinary too. Imagine studying with her. She was incredible.

I wish I could have talked to everyone there! I was thinking mumsnet friends!! Who are you!

I liked Megan's handling of the Q too - but I don't agree that she deflected it?

My takeaway was that whilst she ruled out a formal alliance, she wasn't against ad hoc partnering to address specific issues in specific circumstances (eg. Transactivism in US)

I think I agree with this whilst also concurring with Selina's more strategic point that the overarching goal of liberation won't be delivered without a challenge to the status quo - which the right are invested in maintaining.

I thought Megan astutely highlighted that one was about short term tactics, the other long-term strategy.

It would have been lovely to meet up with some of you - too bad I was late and it was a school night.

It did feel a little bit historic? Or is that me just getting carried away with the atmosphere? I did like Julie Bindle's call to arms!

Does any one know what happened to the final panel member? It was great to hear from you Maya though - thanks for standing in. Liked that Helen Steel was bought into the discussion too - felt very apt.

I thought the question on right wing alliance was pertinent. It was raised against the backdrop of the anti abortion laws in Atlanta and Georgia.
I agree with Megan - It's fine to talk to people but has to be nuanced.
The Times, Spectator ... bring it on. Tommy Robinson and Nigel Farage - ummm... not so much.
Misogyny is on the left and the right - and women on both sides, no sides or in the centre who are fighting it are friends of mine even though we won't agree on everything.
When this juggernaut is pushed back, we can redraw the battlelines again.

WPUK may be socialist but was there a single left of centre MP there last night? Has one ever attended a meeting or sent a message of support? I'm guessing not.

We're on our own and, much as I love Julie Bindel, she's not the head girl of women and I'll talk to whomever I like.

I didn't mean it as a criticism, Floisme - just as context for understanding the WPUK resistance to working with the Right. People may or may not agree with that stance, but it makes perfect sense in the context of being a feminist socialist movement.

Not directed at you at all XX - sorry if it read that way! And I do get that WPUK are socialist but surely even they must be raging at how the left has treated them.

Maya, you are fast becoming a legend of gender critical feminism! I hope you will speak at more events. You show how we can achieve our aims in practice. You're also articulate, witty, and realistic.

It sounds like the meeting was fabulous. I know a couple of attendees - brand new to anything feminist - and they absolutely loved it. Selina Todd was a revelation to them!

Following the hash tag as I was, I'm looking forward to watching Todd when they get the video up. My understanding was that she drew a clear relationship between neoliberalism (economy) and postmodernism (society) and showed how this whole genderist movement is really just a power-friendly extension of Thatcherism. Hooray! Finally! My thoughts precisely!

Agree that WPUK is basically the socialist feminist caucus of GC activism. Their founders and main members are never going to be keen on even specific, strategic alliances with anyone on the right. This places no onus on the rest of us, however - I'm probably well to the left of most of the women who attended last night but I personally have no problem with cross political alliances provided they are clearly delineated and all the usual gloves are off for everything else.

The interruption was from Dr Julia Long, who, having heard the answers on not collaborating with the right asked if WPUK could then justify their work with David Davies, without whom there would not have been a meeting in parliament.

I do understand the reluctance to partner with what had once been the enemy. This has been an eye opening time for me, would never have looked at a paper other than The Guardian, particularly a Murdock one, but now buy The Times. And here we are, going into another election, and many of us here are politically homeless (for the first time ever I will spoil my ballot paper on Thursday) because the party(s) that should be defending my rights have sold me down the river.

Mangoes represents my feelings on this perfectly. There is too much at stake to let tribalism get in the way of us clawing back our hard won rights.

I was there and thought it was brilliant. I felt so privileged to be there listening to some extraordinary women and surrounded by a roomful of fellow feminists. There hasn't been a feminist movement like this since the 1970s.

I didn't have time to make it to the pub beforehand, and reluctantly didn't go to the pub afterwards either, what with it being a weekday. Perhaps I should have thrown caution to the winds! I didn't see Glinner there, so sorry I missed that. It does seem to have been a heck of a turnout. I think someone said Francis Wheen (deputy editor of Private Eye) was there too, which gives me some hope.

Oh, and all the speakers were great - I am in absolute awe of how Bindel has put up with so much crap over the years. She did an absolutely riproaring speech. Selina Todd was a revelation - calm, measured, thoughtful but utterly incisive. Her students are so lucky to be taught by her. I can't tell you how angry I feel that a bunch of over-privileged, spoilt wankers are demanding for her to be sacked for "transphobia".

I was a bit disappointed by Julie and Selina's unequivocal 'No' to the question of whether feminists should work with the right. Meghan and Maya's pragmatic, qualified yes makes much more sense to me.

As Meghan said, what support have feminists had from the left in this? Jack shit. As a movement they do not have our backs, rather the opposite, so there's no need to go all surrendered wife on them.

If you don't think feminists should work with the right.....don't do it. But the fantastic things is that the movement is growing. There are lots of groups now, with lots of different approaches. To people who value ideological purity that might feel like they're losing control, but to me it feels like amazing, fantastic progress.

The other thing that stuck in my mind from last night was Julie Bindel's point that many trans people are actually victims in this. They are pushed into taking strong drugs and surgery off the back of woefully little time spent investigating their motivations. The medial profession has a lot to answer for in this.

It reminded me of this article that R0wantrees often links to
For about 13 years, I also masqueraded “as a woman,” taking medical measures which suggest, shall we say, that I was completely committed to that lifestyle. Most men would have recoiled from this, but in my estrogen-drug-soaked stupor it seemed like a good idea. In 2013 I stopped taking estrogen for health reasons and very rapidly came back to my senses. I ceased all effort to convey the impression that I was a woman and carried on with life.

Wow what a great evening that was! To be surrounded by women who are aware of the issues I’ve been reading about both here and on Twitter for so long, and are equally enraged by them, was awesome. I’m so glad I made the effort to go.

Also to meet up in the pub with other MNetters beforehand was great, such a brilliant bunch you all are!

Also, I had a little chat with Graham Lineham in the pub afterwards. I’m not one for going up to celebrities but I wanted to genuinely thank him for what he has done, using his platform to raise awareness of these issues, at great personal cost to himself. What a lovely man he was!

Thank you to everyone who made last night happen, I personally feel emboldened by it and inspired and encouraged to keep up the fight. And to know that I’m not alone and that together we are potentially so powerful!

My favourite phrase of the night was Julie saying, ‘the only time I want to hear the phrase ‘her penis’ is when a woman has chopped off a man’s dick and is holding it in her hand!’ 😂

bernard there are of course other ways to 'treat' GD than affirmative care.

Of course this then requires recognising it as a condition.

So the whole GRA becoming self id thing is a mess as it denies people appropriate care. But then also requires examination of what Gender v sex is.

I was near Julia long and I thought she called Julie Bindle out on writing for the daily mail.

I guess with any movement there's disagreements, but some of the in fighting depresses me. There were so many brilliant people there last night. So many brave people who've had such shit thrown at them for standing up for their beliefs.

The incredible maniacmagpie
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3491136-amazing-woman-carries-out-one-woman-protest-against-women-s-march-menstruators?pg=3&order=

The legend that is Lesley
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3574935-London-TERFs-crash-Mayday-march-hilarious-write-up-about-ReSisters-just-being-present

Rosa F, Helen steel, Sarah d, debbie, glinner. The whole of the panel AND Julia long.

Megan astutely highlighted that one was about short term tactics, the other long-term strategy.

We are facing a struggle on so many fronts (including the environment and the reality that NCDs are a global emergency#) that I feel have to be able to converse with others with whom we are aligned on particular issues, must as we might abhor other policies. No - I would be horrified to be claimed as an ally be the Neo-liberalists but the ability of groups you loathe to claim ownership of single issues will not stop. The drive towards political purity leads to extremism within parties and bitter rifts between those who could form a useful, strategic alliance on particular topics.

There never has been a political manifesto with which I wholly agree but on balance I vote for the party whose values are most aligned with mine.

Would this issue be on the public agenda in even a limited way if it had been left up to BBC coverage, the unions, the parties? The Times, Spectator, Telegraph and others have had the moral courage to do what other media have not.

And, if we don't support other women, because they are right-wing or RCP or [X which doesn't align with my personal values] then I'm minded of Andrea Dworkin:

My hatred is precious,”...“I don’t want to waste it on those who are colluding in their own oppression. My hatred is geared towards the men that put that crap in their heads, and the ones doing the raping.”

“Women discovered each other,” she wrote in 1974 of the early women’s movement, “for truly no oppressed group had ever been so divided and conquered.”

#See Rachel Nugent's excellent recent lecture:
2019 UCL Lancet Lecture: NCDs as a global emergency - closer to pandemic or climate change?

Speaker: Dr Rachel Nugent, Vice President for Global Non-communicable Diseases at RTI :

@LadyPrinceSexual Jane Clare Jones was there!

I managed a few words with her before I had to flit and on the way there I managed to tag into a group en route that included Rosa F.

It's a shame there's no obvious way of detecting MNetters.

I don't see why believing women don't have penises and that you can't actually change sex has anything to do with party politics and traditional views of left v right.
I've probably moved politically to the right over the last couple of years as I feel the left have become increasingly intolerant and opposed to free speech and more inclined to witch hunt women who won't spout mantras than the right.

There’s not just 1 axis is there? There’s left and right, but also authoritarian and libertarian, and other axis besides

Which is to say, like anything important it’s not simple, which is why I wouldn’t give a simple yes or no answer to the question ‘should feminists work with the right?’

The decision to read out Jean Hatchett's very pointed question was extremely mischievous (to put it mildly), given what we all know about the relationship between SFW and WPUK. Personally, I thought it was a rude and very divisive thing to do. These are desperate times and we need all the allies we can get, wherever they are and whatever their politics. WPUK can concentrate on their left-wing credentials and their purity, and pick and choose who their allies are but I fear it will not necessarily help us win this battle.

Apart from that it was an absolutely splendid meeting and I came away thoroughly inspired, most especially by the lovely Selina and Julie Bindel, of course. I'm sorry I didn't go to the pub afterwards, now.

I needed last night for its optimism and feeling of support.

However, for all those who felt a change, part of me was thinking, "What?!?". Georgia, what it happening in so many countries, the sheer number of obstacles facing women because we are needing to fight again for the rights that are being taken away rather than dedicate ourselves to new fights.

I'm in some sympathy with this Twitter thread: twitter.com/marstrina/status/1130741319725400064?s=20

Last night one of the speakers, Selina I think, said "look what can be achieved in two years!". It's a rousing sentiment, but it's not actually true - not if we zoom out and look at the movement as a collective entity with a temporal dimension.

It's two years of WPUK work, & sterling work it is too! But it's also 40 years of Janice Raymond's work, & twenty years of Julie's work, & at least a decade but probably longer of Karen Ingala-Smith's work, & five years (or more? When was the first FIL?) of Lisa-Marie's work... [cont]

WPUK may talk about choosing their allies but the left hasn’t raised a finger to help them - unless you count wagging one in disapproval.

Anyway sounds like a great night. The disagreements only get to me when one group starts trying to tell another what to do. Feminists could start an argument in church. It’s always been like that and I think it’s both a strength and a weakness.

I thought it was great but I didn't like that the questions were pre-moderated and read out. Women at the meeting should also get the chance to speak.

I think we shouldn't be telling each other what not to do. JB says she writes for the DM because it's better than preaching to the choir and there are good opportunities to speak with conservative women who would not normally listen to the viewpoints of feminists. Miriam Ben-Shalom does this and you must think there might be women (especially lesbians in the closet) who have never interacted with a woman like her and might find it eye-opening.

People can play different roles, we don't all need to do the same thing.

Suffragettes, suffragists, WFL - there was infighting then too but they all helped women's liberation gain traction.