WPUK meeting in London 20 May with Meghan Murphy, Julie Bindel, Selina Todd

[PlonitbatPlonit]

Tickets on sale now for London meeting just announced. Looks like a great meeting.

www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/a-womans-place-is-back-in-town-tickets-59993907392

I agree with several posters casting doubt on the how far the established Left can take us in the direction of women's liberation from patriarchal oppression or, at very least, consolidating our existing legal rights and widening their scope in places, so life is tolerable while we're waiting.

That said, I'd prefer that WPUK worked to influence decision makers in their neck of the woods, than give up because there is misogyny on the Left. They are hardly going to wash their hands of bipartisan politicking, which is their jam. I'm glad they're pushing for the Nordic Model, which seems to be catching on abroad.

As Meghan said at Monday's meeting, we in the UK are fortunate to have "more than one group" working to assert women's sex-based rights. It was chilling to hear that, when C-16 passed in Canada, "nothing happened...nobody demonstrated." She, and a fellow feminist from Vancouver Rape Relief, made representations in court. That was the full extent of the Canadian feminist pushback against the erasure of women's sex-based rights. We are far beyond that, thanks Goddess.

Let's not forget the rest of the (feminist) world is checking in to see what moves we make next. I feel we are in a holding formation, waiting to see whether the govt makes another attempt at pushing through Self-ID. WPUK and others are, at least, channeling some of the otherwise free-floating/undirected energy of 'the movement.' Plenty of us are busy at local level, opposing gender ideology in our schools etc, but the top-level stuff isn't over yet.

I wish we could build something like the National Organisation of Women, as an alternative to the disappointing Women's Equality Party. Attached to no party, lobbying across the issues which unite groups of women. There could be a Mothers' Caucus...

I know, this isn't the 70s. We don't have the conducive context for the same kind of women's movement we had then. However, we showed, last year, that collective action by women is entirely possible and effective when the stakes are high enough to unite us across differences. We are powerful when we speak together. We have...power. If we didn't, would the M/TRAs, and their backers, be going to such lengths to silence us?

Where is 'the movement' headed now? Have we actually seen off the GRA reforms for good, or will the govt next try to do what the City of London has just done - throw women under the bus, ignore our legitimate complaints, and dare us to challenge them? If so, we will have to come together again to fight for our sex-based rights.

I found Monday night's meeting inspiring, even though I wouldn't have the stomach for trying to win concessions to adult human females' humanity and rights from a Labour Party which insists there is no problem with their women's officer. I imagine that will be a long, arduous process, and you would have to be closely wedded to the Left to go the distance. The betrayal was not unforeseeable. I sincerely hope WPUK's trust and optimism will be warranted.

All that said, if it begins to look as though Labour - via WPUK - responds to a growing power-base of GC women by adopting GC-friendly policies, I would seriously consider supporting them.

Oh, and I forgot to add that one of the things that is going to make future battles very difficult is the two faces of science.

The word is often used as shorthand for objective, impartial observation of reality. Unfortunately, we are now looking at science as a religion. It is more helpful to think of science as it was used as a tool in Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia. See for instance the deliberate sowing of confusion that is being discussed on this thread.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3591572-Nature-Journal-accepts-that-people-with-Y-chromosomes-have-vaginas

It was chilling to hear that, when C-16 passed in Canada, "nothing happened...nobody demonstrated." She, and a fellow feminist from Vancouver Rape Relief, made representations in court. That was the full extent of the Canadian feminist pushback against the erasure of women's sex-based rights. We are far beyond that, thanks Goddess.

I am in Canada, and it really was chilling. That bill was the first that I had really heard about how far all of this had gone. I had some knowedge of the situation in universities, but it didn't twig for me that it had spread. And it took me a little bit of time to think about the implications of the whole thing, by which point it was over.
Even since then though I have looked for some sort of place to take some political action, or meet other people, or even just exchange information, in a Canadian context. I've tried to find information about people and parties I might vote for. I've even gone to far as to look up our various Marxist parties and see what they say.
There is zero. I am not really a traditional feminist, but I would be willing to meet people in such a group, or some other group, but there really is nothing.

With regard to science:

This is one of those problems that is bigger than feminism. The way that popular culture treats it, the way that it is taught in schools, even in universities. There was a thread a few days ago by that skeptic movement fellow - a group which promotes a very slanted view of science, but believes they are highly rational and scientific.

Science understood this way can only ever be a tool to promote ideas based on totally different, non-scientific, underpinnings.

Where is 'the movement' headed now? Have we actually seen off the GRA reforms for good, or will the govt next try to do what the City of London has just done - throw women under the bus

I think this is important Pinchpoint

Our response to the City of London actions may have a broader strategic importance in that govt/translobby may be watching to see if they get away with it before deciding what to do next.

Goosefoot I suppose, in that situation, you start building yourself. Back to the consciousness-raising group. A book club at home, a group of interested women meeting regularly and deciding on a purposeful, achievable goal. Read books together, discuss, and work it out. Better for the sanity than listening to the eerie silence! So much starts with simply speaking.

It's strange, as well, re Canada. Meghan's writing and podcasts are highly influential to feminists over here. Seemingly more influential here than in her home country...You might perhaps meet like-minded women in the comments on her site? I wish you luck and hope you find your political kin.

I'd be interested to see what women here think of the Woman's Place UK manifesto demand for compulsory sex and relationships education in schools (I think it was including primary schools). It wasn't qualified/conditional enough for me. I'd be up for feminist-based SRE in schools, talking about sexism, boundaries, consent, the degrading and sexist nature of porn etc. But given all the furore about the queer theory-pushing ideology of No Outsiders and Peter Tatchell wanting teachers to show kids how to masturbate, it has completely turned me off schools and the state having any control over SRE at all

Oh Goosefoot, I know what you mean about science - it's my fault, I am putting my point very badly because I am having a very frustrating day that has nothing at all to do with postmodernism!!

For various reasons, I had my head in the sand completely until I came across WPUK on the internet. They really opened my eyes and I shall be forever grateful. But the two things that really shocked me was how the left was reacting and what was happening in Canada.
It soon dawned on me that what was happening was much bigger than feminism. It seemed to me that it was as if we all live in a huge building and somebody had started to take off the roof but not the bit over my head. When I saw the WPUK videos then I started to see the sky through the rafters. This is the same for all of us - something has been happening for a long time but it is only now becoming apparent when the courts are insisting that we call male rapists who identify as women "she." This is an altering of reality the likes of which I had only come across in 1984 and the Gulag Archipelago - but this was global - Argentina, Canada, Pakistan, Australia and so on.

We have been let down by the left, by the right, by science, by academia and so on. I find the betrayal by academia particularly infuriating and I blame it for much of the confusion that is now going on. So when I come across statements that Postmodernism and queer theory are in some way rooted in Thatcherism I feel great despair. Don't get me wrong, I lived through the Thatcher years, my dad and grandad were miners - but this is quite clearly wrong and does not help us analyse what is going on and what is going on is much bigger than parochial political issues in the UK.

I feel for you in Canada but the battle has only just begun and it's going to be long and hard, I fear.

My thoughts entirely MsJeminaPuddleduck CoL's undemocratic imposition of unisex facilities, despite the outrage from women, is a testing ground for a national rollout. If we don't kick up a major fuss, and make inconvenience for men as one poster pointed out, the govt with assume they have a green light on the GRA.

Our apparent acquiescence will be viewed as a political opportunity. I wish this was merely paranoia, but I do think this juggernaut has yet to come to a halt. I'd like to believe we've 'won' on Self-ID, but I don't see the evidence yet, and today's news re the CoL is not encouraging.

I really want to get something moving re City of London/E. Lord, but I'm no Sweary G!

I agree with you on this Sunkisses. I used to want feminist studies in schools, but had to confront the reality that the only 'feminism' gaining any traction was pseudo, alphabet soup-funded, and therefore deeply inimical to the rights, needs, safety and dignity of children - especially girls.

Women's history, yes, but aside from the obvious need to teach reproductive biology, there are too many bad actors motivated by misogynist ideology who want to get involved with SRE in schools.

Yes, I think the point is we don’t want ideology being taught as fact the in schools

clitherow - interesting comments and lots to think about. Thank you!

Helen Lewis has written a piece about the meeting

How an email with a secret location led me to the most vibrant feminist meeting of the year

Gender critical feminists – like A Woman’s Place – are gaining ground, after decades in the wilderness.

www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2019/05/how-email-secret-location-led-me-most-vibrant-feminist-meeting-year

I was coming on to flag the Helen Lewis piece. It’s more supportive of GC feminism than she’s been in the past. Watch the twitter pile on ...

Wow Posie Parker on FB is livid about this. I feel so dismayed that GC women are starting to attack each other when the threat we face as women is so huge, we should be standing together as we all have a common enemy and we all have so much to lose, whatever our political persuasions are...

clitherow

Yes, you are right, it doesn't come from Thatcher. I think for a lot of people that is when they began to see that POV take over public life though. It also took many people a long time to see the connections between postmodernism on the left and the kind of neoliberalism Thatcher represented. It's still a difficult connection to make for many - many of my liberal family members just look at me like I've grown an extra head when I say things like that.

I put a lot of blame on academia as well, it makes me really angry. In particular, a friend of mine lost a post over gender issues, not even things said in an official capacity, I am looking at my own college now having largely succumbed to it. What's notable to me though is it happened under the direction of people who were not postmodernists at all, and indeed some of them are still there. But they are all people who somehow believe that the perspective of the postmodernists is part of the dialectic, that coming to terms with oppression is an important part of healing. And when you talk to them, they actually don't see what is happening right before them. They remind me of Evergreen, right now they are involved in a project centred around "working through" the historic connections of the college to slavery. Except.... they were almost non-existent, and had no institutional effect then, much less today. So what is the point supposed to be?

Anyway - I am putting more and more blame on the whole project of modernism, but that isn't a popular position. I have recently been rereading The Closing of the American mind, and a lot of it is resonating as well, more than it did when I read it when it came out.

I think the point is we don’t want ideology being taught as fact the in schools

Ideology includes a lot though.

pinchpoint

I have been thinking about that kind of thing. I've ever tried the website!

Where I am struggling is to find women with a similar viewpoint, they are very difficult to flush out. People are scared to say anything.

Hi Goosefoot,

i've just opened a cold lager and am about to bury myself in rubbish on the television, but before I go I must say that I have a copy of the Closing of the American Mind on my bookshelf that I have never gotten around to reading. It has taken me a while to even understand what postmodernism is because I'm still seething about modernism! I'm very slow but am starting to catch up - like you, I don't find many people that share my interests.

LangCleg my comments were not aimed at you but were an expression of general frustration. I can blame Thatcherism for a great deal but I think the affinities that it has with postmodernism and queer theory are just that - affinities and not causation. I am suspicious of the attitude of the middle class left towards the working class and that includes some working class people that have been co-opted to the cause. I have had to spend quite a lot of time trying to undo my own Maoist re-education at the hands of the middle-class education system whilst still being grateful to it for the things that I have learned - it means that I am very conflicted!

Goosefoot if you can afford the risk (and losing your livelihood is no small risk), you might find that being the one to start speaking sets off a chain reaction, and suddenly you discover you were on the 'right side of history' after all. Courage calls to courage, and all that.

For a few years I was in a state of fear of being ostracised or monstered for voicing dismay about the trans juggernaut. I censored myself ruthlessly, and it was deeply uncomfortable. I took a risk speaking to one trustworthy woman and it snowballed, and before long I could feel the political momentum crashing through those barriers to thought and expression set in place by the PoMo brigade. All of a sudden, the unsayable became sayable, and I haven't shut up since

It's like having a backbone is contagious...my voice used to tremble, and now it doesn't. I get messages of support from the most unlikely quarters, and there is a comforting backdrop of Reality behind my interactions with others on the subject.

I still fear consequences of being a public witch, but I'd probably feel afraid if I wasn't speaking out.

Good luck!

thread with link to transcript of Selina Todd's speech:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3592866-Professor-Selina-Todds-brilliant-important-inspirational-speech-Feminism-postmodernism-and-women-s-oppression-WPUK-London-20-5-2019

Thanks, pinchpoint.

I am lucky, my employment is unlikely to be an issue. I've engaged a little on FB with regards to gender, a little, particularly sports. So far it seems no one has bitten though, I feel like a bit on a lone voice. Although, I am finding my family members are more receptive recently.

I am keeping my eyes and ears open though!

Clitherow - I hope you enjoy your lager, I am on my way to a boring meeting and wish I could bring one along! The Bloom book is worthwhile, though he can be kind of insufferable. But I learned a lot from reading it.

“I was coming on to flag the Helen Lewis piece. It’s more supportive of GC feminism than she’s been in the past.”

I think Lewis is more concerned with presenting herself as ‘nice’ and ‘reasonable’, and not like those other nasty women who refuse to give into men.

For example, Lewis says: ‘Both positions have radical fringes. The extreme radical feminists believe that no amount of surgery, hormones or pronoun changes means a man should be treated by the law or society as a woman, or vice versa.’

So presumably she is fine with the legal fiction that a subset of males can become females, sharing female only spaces with these men, and pretending they are women. That is her choice. The problem is she tries to frame women who refuse to pretend men are women, who don’t want any subset of males in our spaces as “extreme” and a “radical fringe”.

She even compares women who refuse to pretend males are women to TRA’s who deny biological reality: ’Their mirror on the transgender side deny the existence of biological sex differences at all: to them, there’s no such thing as “male” and “female”.’

She then compares women who don’t believe in transgenderism to anti-Semitism: ‘Just as the pro-Palestine movement has to keep itself free of anti-Semitism, so the gender-critical movement needs a strong line to prevent activists sliding into transphobia.’

She refuses to acknowledge that women who reject transgender ideology due to its sexist and anti-lesbian foundations are no more ‘transphobic’ than women who reject MRA ideology are ‘misandrists’.

It is just a an article to prove to others she is ‘nice’ and ‘reasonable’ as she is willing to play along with some men’s fantasies, that she is not at all like those awful ‘extreme’, ‘radical fringe’ women who will never play along with men’s fantasies. I think the article is self-serving to be honest.

LangCleg my comments were not aimed at you but were an expression of general frustration

Eh, I like to be challenged. No need to explain!

Where is 'the movement' headed now? Have we actually seen off the GRA reforms for good, or will the govt next try to do what the City of London has just done - throw women under the bus

Everyone needs to look up north to Scotland & throw whatever help/expertise they can muster 'cos we need as much support as we can get. There's some brilliant women working their arises off but a real dearth of legal help/support/expertise to underpin the work that's happening. We've a real battle on our hands & while the tensions ease a little down south as the huge volume of GRA responses bog the legislators down & stall any moves, we are facing a huge push on tran ideology from all corners.

My plea to all who are energised by WPUK meeting - don't forget us up in Scotland and send any/all help if you can spare it, especially that legal/policy expertise. Karen Ingala Smith was just outstanding today at the W&E committee but we don't have someone doing or saying the same things she did today as the main women's groups funded by government are selling women & girls out for their woke cookies.

It might seem that what's going on up here doesn't affect you all elsewhere but if they can push this through up here, it'll give the trans lobby their blueprint for what happens elsewhere so it's important that we give it all we have to challenge this in Scotland so any/all help is welcome.