WPUK meeting in London 20 May with Meghan Murphy, Julie Bindel, Selina Todd

[PlonitbatPlonit]

Tickets on sale now for London meeting just announced. Looks like a great meeting.

www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/a-womans-place-is-back-in-town-tickets-59993907392

JL was annoyed at the last WPUK I was at in February last year in the same venue. She made a point about GC TIMs not demanding that GC women call them women which was received frostily. Miranda made the same point later and was roundly cheered. I think JL left at that point.

I agree with her it was hypocritical of WPUK to take that position when they have dealt with David Davis (which I agreed with).

Incidentally, that last meeting included questions and comments from the crowd without too much "faff" as have many other meetings I've been to. I also noted (as did a pp) that most of the questions were from people I'd heard of.

I dropped out of active politics long ago because of this type of in-fighting.

My deep regret is that WPUK deliberately facilitated division which was entirely avoidable.

Of course they didn't. They invited written questions beforehand because handling questions from the floor is a faff. Everyone who had a ticket was invited to send in questions. It's not surprising the question about alliances came up, and in fact the four women answered it differently. Please don't try and sour what was an absolutely brilliant evening characterised by lots of feminist solidarity and a real sense of togetherness and purpose.

Going back a couple of pages, just want to add as I was posting comments someone had said to me, that she thought not just Meghan Murphy but also Maya Forstarter were balanced in the response to the question about working with right wingers.

For her the issue was that she thinks it is a dubious to be on a right wing platform, but gets fed up with (her words) "smug socialitsts virtue signalling each other".

The meeting was an opportunity to reach out to the diversity of women.

(Not sure how any of this fits in with its being said to be the launch of their 2019 aims.)

Everyone who had a ticket was invited to send in questions.

So, please explain why WPUK chose to deliver that first question, if it was not intended to sow division, given the reaction to the Washington DC activity in January 2019?

(sorry going to sound like a right gossip but ... )

Apparently the CE of the Women's Resource Centre (WRC) spoke about how hard it is for small women's groups to implement women only services under the EA.

Well - it would be easier for small groups to do this if the "representative" group (ie the WRC) had spoken up about women service providers rights under the EA. But then as an artifical construction of funders to save them the bother of actually consulting with a range of women's groups by saying we talk to WRC so that's enough, it might be thought they dont feel they can speak out.

Can you imagine what a different scenario we would now be in if back in 2004 WRC had taken a public position on women only provision.

Ironically Karen Ingala Smith said the the nia project is seeking legal advice on providing women only services and that they will be producing a paper on this which they are happy to share with other women's groups.

Maybe the WRC funding should go to the nia project!

(PS on another issue, yes some women active in WNTT and LRA are opposed to trans women having a platform, and the TES article has been widely criticised on various facebook group pages.)

Further, Hayton professes to be concerned about children and the impact on them of transgender ideology and practice while simultaneously gaslighting / deceiving children by requiring them to refer to Hayton as "Miss" while in Hayton's care via loco parentis in school.

After an event last autumn, I had the pleasure of spending a few hours chatting to Julia Long alongside a couple of other women, in a pub. She is a very caring and woman-focused person. She really listens to other women and values their opinions. She seemd to think deeply about what other women say and their experiences. She very much centres women in her thoughts and her activism. She was great company and very smiley.

However nine months later she is being described as livid, angry and like a petulant teenager. It makes me sad that Julia is feeling and coming across this way. I know that many have struggled with the recent divisions.

I wish somehow we could prioritise caring for all women, regardless of the things that divide us.

However nine months later she is being described as livid, angry and like a petulant teenager. It makes me sad that Julia is feeling and coming across this way.

Perhaps the impression that is being generated by others is not a reflection of Ms Long at all but is a reflection of how others are making misinterpretations. It may be that those women who make those misinterpretations should take some time and make some effort to get to know Ms Long and her perspective?

"Everyone who had a ticket was invited to send in questions."

Someone has asked that question on their facebook page ie was this representative of the majority of questions sent in or WPUK choosing to prioritise it.

As yet I dont think they have answered.

I would suggest those using such terms about a grown woman should have a serious think about their own misogyny.

If there was a "Like" button, I would select it, Spartacus!

Someone has asked that question on their Facebook page ie was this representative of the majority of questions sent in or WPUK choosing to prioritise it.

The question was introduced as being from Ms Hatchet and Prof Freedman.

I really dont have time for these divisions in feminism with the overwhelming dominating patriarchal forces that we face in society.

Meghan Murphy made the point that there are actually very few women who think in terms of being really on the right or really on the left, Many dont see themselves like that at all. We need to be prepared to talk to all women throughout society

Can wait to see Selina Todds speech again -so much to take in but so good. She must be so inspiring to learn from!

Julie is really thrilling to listen to. Occasionally gets carried away but part of the thrill. The references and information she can cite from her long term involvement are fantastic.

All the speakers were great!

I sat beside Francis Wheen so yes he was there, invited by Julie. Delightful well informed person to chat to!

Great evening. So many great people to talk to.

The question was introduced as being from Ms Hatchet and Prof Freedman.

Yes I think everyone knows that. The issue is was this question representative of the majority that were sent in or was it chosen because (1) they are WPUK friends and (2) because WPUK wanted to score a political point.

Unless and until WPUK explain why they chose this as the first question none of us will know - although we may suspect we know the answer.

Yes, as I recall, at the end of the panel's presentations, Ruth S said she would read out some questions and she looked down at the papers she had and said something like 'This one gets straight down to it' - that's not verbatim, but it was something that indicated she knew it was going to cause a bit of a stir, I'd say. Then she read out the question and said 'from Jean Hatchet, is Jean Hatchet here?' Somebody called out from the floor (not Julia, it was someone on the ground floor), I couldn't make out what was said, and then Ruth said 'And we have another quite similar one from Rosa Freedman, Rosa, do you want to ask the question?' and Rosa said no, she was happy for Jean's question to be the one asked as they were similar. So the panel answered. I can't remember at what point there was a shout from the balcony, but somebody here has said it was during Julie Bindel's response, or at the end of it. I couldn't see who it was and didn't know it was Julia Long till I read it here. I didn't know she was at the event. I couldn't make out what was said and Ruth S shut it down straight away by saying that questions had been invited in advance of the meeting and it was too late to ask one now. Now I know it was Julia Long I do think that was very unfortunate, but my main feeling is that planting Jean Hatchet's question like that was absolutely done to make a point, and frankly that was unnecessary.

Whilst I wish Julia Long hadn't shouted out, I understand why she did (and to be honest, probably would have done so too)

Last night was a tremendous success, all the speakers were superb, particularly for me, Selina Todd's which I'm going to listen to over and over again when it's released.

I do agree though that choosing that question was unnecessarily divisive for everyone aware of the (very recent) rift in the GC community plus, surely they were aware Julia was there???

I have a huge respect for Julia Long and tbh all the feminists I've heard speaking out on this, and I believe that diversity of views here will make us stronger in the long term.

I didn't get the manifesto last night so skimmed it online today but I'm not sure that I'm comfortable with it. I think WPUK are tremendous, however, it felt to me like it was shoehorning (this new awakened) feminism back into old socialist ideas.

I would personally have preferred it to have been focussed but on shorter term, more urgent issues - transactivism, porn, policing and the institutional capture of our organisations.

If though, we (as a movement - clearly WPUK have every right to do what they want) are setting out our stall for a different society, I think we need to get away from the old tired ideas of the left with it's economic view that centres men and its instrumentalist view of the natural world. With (rampant) capitalism l, it shares responsibility for getting us into this mess.

Not just free childcare, for instance, but a society where we truly put people first - so that parents can look after their kids / parents etc AND work rather than than higher paid parents shifting care to (other) women on a lower wage which is the inevitable result of free care within the status quo.

Selina said some really interesting things here but also seemed confident that Labour/ socialistic politics could deliver this radically different vision. I'm not sure that it can. I think the problematic views of both women and the natural world are intrinsic to socialist politics.

However, since since I also think that Selina Todd is an actual (literal? ) goddess after her speech yesterday, I expect I've misinterpreted her somewhere along the way!

Sorry .. that was very very long . Got carried away. As you were

The issue is was this question representative of the majority that were sent in or was it chosen because (1) they are WPUK friends and (2) because WPUK wanted to score a political point.

The moment is lost now. It would have been easy for WPUK to say that the prominent question was that one, asked by n% of respondents. The choice made was to avoid that approach.

It is difficult to trust any further response now.

On the matter of transwomen, Julia Long's position is crystal clear and has been for a long time. At Radfem 101, which I also attended, she spelled it out. I suspect I can't do it here.

I'm torn about this. Wanting to dress in a 'feminine' way does not make a male into a female. I used to find it very cheering to see that chap on Twitter who regularly posted photos of himself in his mini skirts and was adamant that he had very little hassle going into the men's loos dressed like that. I think he was called Hope or maninpink and was eventually banned from Twitter, inevitably.

On the other hand, I also agree with Julie Bindel that it is unfair and unpleasant to have a go at transwomen and accuse them all of indulging a fetish. Gender dysphoria arises from the very sexist nature of our society. I do believe that many transwomen, the ones trying to get on with their lives below the radar, suffer from dysphoria. I don't believe that they all have AGP.

If though, we (as a movement - clearly WPUK have every right to do what they want) are setting out our stall for a different society, I think we need to get away from the old tired ideas of the left with it's economic view that centres men and its instrumentalist view of the natural world.

Yes. It seems that some may be prioritising socialism over feminism, which may not be what is required in the current circumstances. [I would personally have preferred it to have been focussed but on shorter term, more urgent issues - transactivism, porn, policing and the institutional capture of our organisations.]

The current situation is not an excuse for a socialist recruitment drive.

I too would prefer a more focussed manifesto, certainly more woman focussed. It looks like they're trying to recreate the Labour Party. I agree with Spartacus on the relevant issues being prostitution and porn along with policing and institutional capture - that's a very precise set of issues which can appeal to a broad range of women on the right and left and, as Meghan says, those who are not on either.

Perhaps the impression that is being generated by others is not a reflection of Ms Long at all but is a reflection of how others are making misinterpretations. It may be that those women who make those misinterpretations should take some time and make some effort to get to know Ms Long and her perspective?

I still very much think Julia Long is great and her perspective is very valuable. My conversation with her and when I have heard her talk has always given me lots to reflect on.

I would imagine that she, alongside others, feels hurt and upset (this may just be my projection of how I would feel) and maybe this is understandably reflected sometimes in her demeanour, causing people to misinterpret her.

I am sure that Julia can probably channel her feelings into positive action though and I am sure that she will remain as brilliantly woman-focused as ever.

My thoughts.

To be fair I was confused by the question, and didn't realise until I read comments here today there might be an agenda to it. I thought we were there for the common ground of what we could do to protect and safeguard women's and children's rights and spaces. I was there to hear people speak whom I have come to respect for their wealth of knowledge and experiences. However with Julie and Selina's answers to the question solidarity and all sense of togetherness and purpose fell away for me. I wonder if the recording is up yet? I'd like to hear their answers to the question again just in case I misinterpreted what they said but yesterday the message I got was that only the left can be the supporters of women's rights; only those on the left were/could be feminists.

At a time when we all need to pull in the same direction I was and still am deeply troubled that political views seem to be more important than allies from other political viewpoints.

I once went into an exam, turned over the paper only to see a subject I had not revised for. My heart sank. I felt the same leaving that meeting yesterday.

I'm not sure if anyone else has mentioned that Maya was wearing an Adult Human Female t-shirt. There were quite a few in the audience too.