Deborah Orr

[notwokeup]

Just a shout out for how great Deborah Orr has been on Twitter recently, and how much I admire her.

She was a couple of years above me at uni and I remember seeing her sitting on a desk in the student newspaper office, all big hair and pixie boots, cool as fuck, and obviously a rising star then. (This was the early 80s!)

I'd always admired her writing, but I think she's really stepped up with the GC stuff recently, showing Sally Hines up for the foolish handmaiden she is.

I want to win this. As far as I can see, that's going to mean reaching out when people who previously considered us unkind and even bigoted have a change of heart. We may not want to be their best friends but I think we need them.

Couldn't agree more. We need to show we're not unthinking tribalists; we've considered the facts, we're willing to discuss and we're not, basically, like the TRAs.

Another person who wants to add my voice in support of Deborah Orr. I think it's absolutely brilliant that she changed her mind and I respect her a lot for getting there and publicly standing up for women's rights. It's not hard to see how people get suckered into supporting the trans ideology and to actually stop, listen and reconsider shows strength of character and intellectual honesty when this is playing out publicly.

Most people who support the trans activist agenda to deconstruct women's rights aren't virulent misogynists and they will change their minds once they 'get it' (or 'peak trans' as people say). We've all made mistakes and changed our minds after getting more information. Christ, imagine if we could never change our minds without getting beaten over the heads with our past mistakes.

The fact that people who support the fight to maintain women's rights include people whose natural inclination was just to be nice and accepting and inclusive of trans people before they realised what that actually meant is what belies the TRA claim that we are just a movement motivated by hate for trans people.

I would guess that formerly committed 'allies' are quite common in the movement. Whereas have you ever heard of a committed supporter of gay rights suddenly changing their mind? Perhaps in some kind of born-again religious scenario, but I don't think this is common.

Hello.

I've been aware for a while that this debate was going on, fairly toxically - but I've been heavily involved in a pro-EU Remain movement for the last (nearly) three years and I only have time and energy for one fight.

However. I was one of the posters on the Woodcraft FB page transinclusion post, now largely removed (referenced here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3533593-Woodcraft-Folk-and-trans-inclusivity ). I saw one female poster say basically 'what about the girls' and two men attempt to put her back in her box, so I chimed in. Within a day and a half, I'd been accused of a hate crime and told I would be hunted down - for saying that I considered 'cis' to be a regressive and illiberal concept and that there was some distinction in biological womanhood. My experience on that thread that has done quite a lot to radicalise me, particularly as a mother of daughters. Thank you Woodcraft: Education for Social Change indeed.

I do think that the discussion is starting to leach out into wider discourse. The Twitter feed I manage for the pro-EU group has obviously been very political - but in the last few months, more sex / gender related tweets seem to found their way into the feed from the people we've been following for years.

Also: in relation to the comment above "I want to win this. As far as I can see, that's going to mean reaching out when people who previously considered us unkind and even bigoted have a change of heart. We may not want to be their best friends but I think we need them." My experience with the Remain movement is that it would have been pointless without engaging so-called 'Soft Leavers' and embracing #RemainerNow. You don't have to agree with the politics to see that three years has seen a massive sea-change and the growth of the biggest grassroots movement in Europe. It has involved finding common ground, as well as debunking myths.

I have been on and off Mumsnet for years, but I have set up a new user name for this. It relates to a Woodcraft song about assured mutual nuclear destruction. "You've got axes, we've got axes too..."

@YouveGotAxes Welcome, Deborah, and thank you so much for putting your head above the parapet and speaking out! You are a hero, and I sincerely appreciate it!

💪Deborah

I realise this is an old thread, but am reviving it because people may not know that Deborah Orr has recently been diagnosed with stage 4 breast cancer. It's unbelievably sad.

She has a Twitter thread about it here:

twitter.com/DeborahJaneOrr/status/1169174493325139968

Oh, that is such sad news. I have really enjoyed reading her journalism over the years.

Yes I saw that on twitter

💐Deborah

I've seen her talking about it on Twitter recently. It is so sad, particularly given how she has been treated by the medical profession and her ex.

Heartbreaking. I've always liked and admired her and she seemed to be entering a liberated phase in her life with her book coming out and getting shot of that awful husband. Her kids are still young too, late teens/early 20s I think.

Deborah

Deborah I’m sorry to hear of the appalling treatment or lack of, she has received over the last year.

What pachyderm said. It is very sad as she did seem to have been liberated in so many ways. That thread is so impressive - praising the good and calling out the bad parts of her treatment.

Her wonderful Twitter account has been deleted

That's so sad. It's like when people's diaries or letters get destroyed after their death.

Oh no, so sorry to see that. Lovely she popped up on here.