Deborah Orr

[notwokeup]

Just a shout out for how great Deborah Orr has been on Twitter recently, and how much I admire her.

She was a couple of years above me at uni and I remember seeing her sitting on a desk in the student newspaper office, all big hair and pixie boots, cool as fuck, and obviously a rising star then. (This was the early 80s!)

I'd always admired her writing, but I think she's really stepped up with the GC stuff recently, showing Sally Hines up for the foolish handmaiden she is.

I agree, Floisme. We need more people to change their minds, and vilifying those who do simply for not doing so sooner isn't going to help them to make that change.

That is a very relevant article TheFrontHoleIsConnectedToThe. It's interesting to see how Turner was actually on the right path in some parts but overall went for "we must be nice". Presumably because she had the mindset that trans means transsexual.

In an otherwise mindful world, transgender people are just about the last group it is permissible to mock. “We are”, as Emma says, “the punchline to every joke.” From Shakespeare to Little Britain cross-dressing is seen as hilarious, saturnalian, perverse. A bunch of hairy ex-soldiers I know shove on lipstick and tutus so readily for fancy dress parties, I wonder if they do it for more than laughs.

Give me strength - she’s thought about her views and reconsidered. Publicly. How exactly are we going to win this without people changing their minds?

Completely agree.

The more people who reverse-ferret, the better. It's wonderful to watch people changing their mind.

It's also fun watching people like Maria Miller doing so but pathetically trying to pretend she hasn't and that she never said that, it was someone else's fault.

All part of the process...

There are still people who think "trans" means transexual. And if you read the propaganda of TRAs you will think that no transwoman has ever attacked a woman. They state it pretty unequivocally. And it is repeated by important, clever people who should know better. So I can't blame anyone for a reverse ferret when they figure it out.

@nauticant even the link name is "change or kill youself"

It's sad because she herself has been the victim of people saying she will make young trans people kill themselves because of her articles.

But I'm not going to lionise any woman who derided us for championing women.

To paraphrase from a Mumford & Sons song, who I think got the concept from the parable of the Prodigal Son. It's not the long walk home which will change hearts, but the welcome received at the restart.

If you've been part of a toxic rigid and dogmatic social movement which doesn't allow any disagreement. If you're constantly having to check what you say lest you be shamed and piled. To leave all that and then to publicly speak against it is brave and I applaud people who do it.

I've been onboard for a long time now, but I definitely haven't been for 40 years. Most of us haven't. We're all taking our own time.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3538513-I-think-youll-all-find-this-interesting

Yes, I am belatedly realising that this misogynistic, homophobic car crash has been going on for longer than I’ve been alive

Sheila Jeffreys describes attempts by a small number of males to access women's groups and spaces in the 1970's and how it was easier then for women to say 'no' collectively.
Short important speech in which Sheila Jeffreys identifies transgenderism as part of the men's sexual rights movement:

Yes, I am belatedly realising that this misogynistic, homophobic car crash has been going on for longer than I’ve been alive

Yes but the internet has caused it to gain momentum like never before. I think over the next 5 years you're going to find most people "peak trans". The concern is that it may well be too late legally.

This. I can't think of anything more counterproductive than others, who want to follow Orr's path, seeing her being met with disdain for not having seen the light earlier.

I wasn't suggesting I disdain her, just that I can't get excited about the sudden volte face. Sorry, I just can't.

Maybe because I don't fully trust anyone who's previously been quite so vocally sneery about the feminist position.

I say to you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repents, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance."

Gosh this took a turn

I'm not sure I'm very keen at having bible verse quoted at me to that my feelings are "wrong". (Too much of that in my background).

It's not a moral issue. It's a personal wariness issue.

If you can find some scripture to "prove" to me that I should trust Maria Miller, I'll be impressed.

Cole was there ever a time when you thought differently to how you think now? Was there ever a time when you were unaware of the dangers of the transgender movement? Have you ever come across new information and changed your mind on any issue?

But cole did you see that Janice Turner has also done an about face? She has been instrumental in writing for reputable papers to get the word out to the non right wing readers.

We can't help our feelings but that doesn't mean we can't question them.

It's not the previous opinion that makes me uneasy crone it's the previous contempt.

I'll never forget the personal contacts who described my/the GC position as "bigotry" either. Il not going to seek them out and pelt them with rotten cabbages, but I do remember.

To answer your question, I went straight from bemused to GC. But it's only my lack of sneering that I'll accept crédit for. I know we all had to wrap our head around the move from Quentin Crisp to Monroe Bergdorf.

I'm going to go with arriving at the right destination being my focus rather than criticising the journey others took in arriving at (broadly) the same place as me.

I am very wary of anything that looks like purity politics.

I understand your feelings Cole but I'm going to ask again: How are we going to win this if we don't welcome people who change their minds? Cos I don't think Sheila Jeffreys, Germaine Greer and Julie Bindel can do it on heir own.

Cole I know it’s hard to read tone on the internet but the Bible quote wasn’t meant to be taken seriously. I’m an atheist, after all.

Flo im fine with minds changing. There's nothing wrong with polite disagreement or people changing their position.

I wasn't commenting on a change of position.

But cole did you see that Janice Turner has also done an about face?

Vaguely. I don't remember her being sneery, but maybe she was and i missed it.

We can't help our feelings but that doesn't mean we can't question them.

This is getting too sanctimonious for me.

I've thought a lot about handmaidens and the contempt of thé woke and I'm okay with how I feel about it.

Fair enough @hackmum

I'm sorry you find that sanctimonious but I want to win this. As far as I can see, that's going to mean reaching out when people who previously considered us unkind and even bigoted have a change of heart. We may not want to be their best friends but I think we need them.

I want to win this. As far as I can see, that's going to mean reaching out when people who previously considered us unkind and even bigoted have a change of heart. We may not want to be their best friends but I think we need them.

I totally agree.

I’m another who wouldn’t hear anything negative or even questioning on transfolk and trans rights until about 4 yrs ago - and I disdainfully looked dorm on anyone who did as ignorant bigots. It’s been quite a trip. That’s what these more extreme TAs don’t seem to get - folk are listening, questioning and changing their minds. Twitter really is not kind or an ally to

TRANSFOLK!