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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

‘More acceptance’ of S&M needed

999 replies

Imnobody4 · 25/03/2019 10:05

talkradio.co.uk/news/more-acceptance-needed-sm-activities-19032230392
My morning isn't starting well. Haven't heard the programme - not sure I could stand it.

OP posts:
RepealTheGRA · 25/03/2019 10:25

If it makes you feel better I think Caroline Farrow is also on talk radio this morning?

Maybe the had to ‘show balance’ since they were hosting a ‘catholic bigot’?

thatdamnwoman · 25/03/2019 10:29

Before Christmas we hiked up a mountain in New Zealand: deserted area, busy at ski time but not in the summer. When we got close to the top in an area where the skiers park we found a car and a short distance away could see a naked woman tied and dangling from a tree branch while a couple of fully clothed men were photographing and doing goodness knows what to her. I was all for racing over and rescuing her but I was outnumbered by right-on New Zealand lesbians and their gay friend who said 'It's just S&M, she's having the time of her life, the guys are just doing what she's asked them to do.' If I'd had a phone signal I would quietly have called the police but no signal. We walked on for a bit but had to come back that way about 15 minutes later and the car and people had gone.

I still shake when I think about it. What if she'd been kidnapped, coerced or whatever? I should have photographed the car/ number plate and reported it later. When did S&M get such a hold that three educated professionals who'd call themselves feminists just shrug at encountering a woman bound and being tortured?

hoodathunkit · 25/03/2019 11:14

I strongly believe that whatever consenting adults do in private whether BDSM/S&M, polyamory, sex work, whatever is nobody else's business but theirs.

However

There is a very significant problem regarding the appropriation of minority rights groups, including lesbian and gay groups, "kink positive", "sex positive", polyamory and sex work campaigning groups by cults, criminals and social engineers.

This is an entirely different issue to the issue of whether, for example, all sex work is rape (I do not believe it is), whether it is OK to be in a polyamorous relationship etc.

Unfortunately the pendulum swings between oppressing minority groups at one end to promoting the most extreme and ridiculous narratives at the other.

The result is confusion and a feeling that the world has gone completely mad, with people who should be listening to one another and learning from each other up in arms with each other.

I experienced this in a very personal way when I gave some interviews to the media about being trafficked many years ago.

Lots of different campaigning groups wanted to appropriate my narrative to serve their campaigns, everything from feminist separatists who seemed only interested in portraying me as a victim and survivor of abuse by the patriarchy (while I might be a victim and survivor I am not defined only as such, also I have been abused by women many times), through to racists wanting to appropriate my narrative to serve their own campaigns of hatred.

Re S&M/BDSM/kink I think that this is a centrally important issue but it is an issue about which it seems very difficult to discuss to think about. The pendulum swings between the extremes of “all BDSM/S&M/kink is abuse against women” through to "BDSM/S&M/kink is wonderful and empowering and can be used as psychotherapy to heal people from the trauma associated with child abuse” at the other.

The book 50 Shades of Grey, which I have not read, seems to me to be part and parcel of a promotion of "kink" to the masses. I have met many women who are experimenting with kinky sex having seen the film or read the book.

The fact is that lots of people, men and women, experiment with all kinds of things sexually, and, providing it is consenting adults, I do not have any problem with with people experimenting sexually. I do have a problem with “kink” being promoted as psychotherapy. I also have a problem with the various “kink positive” counsellors and psychotherapists touting their business as many of them have links to abusive cults.

Before Christmas we hiked up a mountain in New Zealand: deserted area, busy at ski time but not in the summer. When we got close to the top in an area where the skiers park we found a car and a short distance away could see a naked woman tied and dangling from a tree branch while a couple of fully clothed men were photographing and doing goodness knows what to her.

My concern re this would be a) to ensure that the woman really had consented and was not being assaulted b) the fact that this was sexual activity in a public place where children might stumble across it.

If the woman really had given consent and really was having the time of her life, and the spot was deserted 99.9% of the time so accidentally being stumbled upon by children was not an issue, what would you think then? Would you still want to rescue her? Genuine question asked out of curiosity, not having a go at you.

zanahoria · 25/03/2019 11:21

your friends may have been right but its not unreasonable to think she may in danger and calling the police was the sensible option

thatdamnwoman · 25/03/2019 11:31

I can't agree with you, Hoodathunkit. We live in a rape culture: we're seeing the results in the mental health issues of our young people.

hoodathunkit · 25/03/2019 11:41

I can't agree with you, Hoodathunkit. We live in a rape culture: we're seeing the results in the mental health issues of our young people.

I do not expect people to agree with me.

Surely we hold a diversity of opinions based upon our personal experiences and that is a good thing yes?

Rape culture is a real thing, I would not deny that.

However rape culture is much more of a thing in rural Australia and India, for example, than it is in the UK.

I have been helped very much by name women and many men. I have also been violated by many women and many men.

We can only speak about our personal experiences and hope that we can all learn from one another.

hoodathunkit · 25/03/2019 11:48

For the record, I am completely uninterested in kink / BDSM although I was involved in the scene a long time ago.

I ended up feeling very coerced into doing things I did not want to do.

Even though I am uninterested in it (largely due to emotional trauma contaminating anything I might once have experienced) I simply do not feel it is my place to deny the rights of other people to enjoy a bit of spanking or sexual experimentation if they enjoy it.

When it comes to more severe stuff, such as cutting, branding etc. I feel very concerned that the euphoric feeling people get from it can be addictive and can operate as a kind of self-harming and can, in some instances, be used like self-harm, as a way of avoiding unbearable thoughts and feelings.

3boysandabump · 25/03/2019 11:49

Before Christmas we hiked up a mountain in New Zealand: deserted area, busy at ski time but not in the summer. When we got close to the top in an area where the skiers park we found a car and a short distance away could see a naked woman tied and dangling from a tree branch while a couple of fully clothed men were photographing and doing goodness knows what to her. I was all for racing over and rescuing her but I was outnumbered by right-on New Zealand lesbians and their gay friend who said 'It's just S&M, she's having the time of her life, the guys are just doing what she's asked them to do.' If I'd had a phone signal I would quietly have called the police but no signal. We walked on for a bit but had to come back that way about 15 minutes later and the car and people had gone.

The police should have been called anyway so they moved them on. People can do what they want behind closed doors but why does that rest of the world need to see it? *
*

thatdamnwoman · 25/03/2019 11:51

I have also been violated by many women and many men.

This stands out for me. You have been violated yet you stand up for more violation.

I'm with Dworkin on this one. Too many 'rough sex gone wrong' defences in court.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 25/03/2019 11:52

I think the problem is that nothing is context free

so I have no doubt that there are women who are turned on by BDSM

however the context is that men as a class are violent towards women as a class

men as a class have a sense of entitlement over women as a class

this will bleed into BDSM activity

I also think that for many people being aroused by BDSM is linked to gendered ideas that women are intrinsically submissive

yes I know there are lots of dommes, but I think that part of the reason people are aroused by that is turning gendered expectation on its head. So it's extra arousing for men to be dominated by a woman because that's extra humiliating

AssassinatedBeauty · 25/03/2019 11:53

What extra acceptance do S&M advocates want? They can clearly do what they like in private, apart from causing actual bodily harm to other people which I think is the right line to draw.

The chap that was sent to prison recently was operating on people, removing body parts like ears with only local anaesthetic and no medical training. That's clearly completely irresponsible and dangerous.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 25/03/2019 11:53

You have been violated yet you stand up for more violation

not fair thatdamnwoman, not fair at all

thatdamnwoman · 25/03/2019 11:58

Why is it not fair? I ask sincerely.

hoodathunkit · 25/03/2019 11:58

This stands out for me. You have been violated yet you stand up for more violation

This is exactly the kind of violating comment that kept me involved in an abusive relationship.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 25/03/2019 12:03

Why is it not fair? I ask sincerely

I did not see anything in hoodathunkit's posts that advocated for people to be violated

rather the opposite in fact

hoodathunkit · 25/03/2019 12:06

If someone is involved in a cult or an abusive relationship do you support them best by

a) repeating "you are in a cult / abusive relationship" over and over again until they get the message
b) tell them the they are enabling abuse / standing up for abusers
c) listen to them, be there for them and bite your tongue so that they will know that they can turn to you for support when the penny finally drops

I will always go for c)

just because it is the most effective strategy

hoodathunkit · 25/03/2019 12:10

Thanks BernardBlacksWineIcelolly I really appreciate your support and agree with you 100% that context is everything

I have to leave things here for the moment as am feeling very distressed by horrible memories

I am fairly tough but sometimes I get tearful

FermatsTheorem · 25/03/2019 12:17

The problem is the way the law operates in misogynistic ways. So, for instance, the Spanner case establishes that gay men cannot consent to GBH. However, straight women are deemed able to consent to GBH up to and including their own death as a result (see the number of recent manslaughter cases where men have got away with the lesser charge rather than murder, by arguing it was "rough sex gone wrong"). And yet the press as a whole seems to say nothing about this glaring asymmetry.

Personally, I have a "modest proposal": make BDSM completely illegal. It wouldn't stop people doing it, but it sure as hell would make sure the dominant (or as I think might be a more accurate description, abusive) partner got consent and carried out their kinks safely. Because they would know that if they didn't and they got reported, or something went wrong, there would be no defence of "well she asked for it."

Incidentally - I stand by my characterisation of dominance as abuse: too many women are on the receiving end of "dominance" used as a way of disguising abusive intent for me to think of it in any other way. Repackaging abuse as "kink" is simply a propaganda move in a concerted war against women, a war in which women are actually dying as a direct result.

nauticant · 25/03/2019 12:25

Personally, I have a "modest proposal": make BDSM completely illegal.

I struggle with this from the perspective of creating laws to make things illegal that are then not going to be policed. However, I like it from the perspective of sending out a public health message about BDSM that could have a deterrent effect. Let the fans engage in it but make the barriers to entry higher rather than the current approach of encouragement.

BickerinBrattle · 25/03/2019 12:28

Id like to see the discussion shifted so that the focus is less on what women consent to and why and instead on what men want and why.

What is it about so many men now that they get off on inflicting pain, abuse, and torture on women?

If women were animals, we’d be appalled. We’d have a PETW rushing in to free them. Filming the torture of women would be beyond the pale, as it is now with dogs and cats.

But women are just women.

Furrytoebean · 25/03/2019 12:29

'I struggle with this from the perspective of creating laws to make things illegal that are then not going to be policed.'

Why does this bother you?

The only time someone would report is if something had gone wrong, or if someone didn't consent fully.

It would remove the 'she liked it rough' defence.

FermatsTheorem · 25/03/2019 12:29

Re. making things illegal - hence my scare quotes round "modest proposal" - it's an attempt to shift the Overton window on the debate, rather than a genuine proposal.

It scares the willies out of me the number of young people who seem to think choking is part of mainstream sex, for instance, when I know lots of genuine BDSM enthusiasts who won't go near that as a practice because the risk of it going wrong with fatal consequences is way too high.

nauticant · 25/03/2019 12:42

'I struggle with this from the perspective of creating laws to make things illegal that are then not going to be policed.'

Why does this bother you?

Because making the application of the law arbitrary is generally a bad idea. Some laws get policed (or possibly not depending on the circumstances), some don't, and you can find yourself in a situation where the choice depends on who the "offender" is.

abuseofpowercomesasnosurprise · 25/03/2019 12:47

I know a woman in her late twenties, who says things like 'I like to be raped' (well, it's not rape if you like it, it's rough sex, but hey...) and poses on her Instagram 'artfully' with her tits out and in gimp masks etc. I don't actually think she's into really heavy stuff, I think it's more of a fashionable identity for her to have. I'm not judging her for it either, I think people can get up to what they like, although I do agree with BernardBlacksWineIcelolly's analysis above, and see the growth in this as a direct result of violent porn which treats women as objects of torture for male pleasure. What concerns me is that she has BPD, and seems to be using BDSM as others have mentioned, as a kind of therapy. Rather like those who fashionably adopt a trans identity, she wears this BDSM identity as it legitimises her mental health issues and gives her a kind of protective shield because it's so uncool to 'kink shame'. In reality what happens is men use her for sex and dispose of her afterwards, then she goes into a deep and self-destructive depression before the cycle starts all over again. Its nothing more than self-harm. She values herself first and foremost as a sexual object and neglects her friendships and career. I imagine there are a lot of young women like her who have a damaged core identity and are victims of abuse, who latch onto BDSM because they think it gives them an 'edge', elevates them above women who are not so self-harming/adventurous, and gives the illusion of taking control of the abuse, but it results in the same old pattern of vulnerable women being exploited.

Furrytoebean · 25/03/2019 12:48

But those acts are already illegal.
It's illegal to choke someone or beat them.

It's just saying that those acts don't become legal simply because it's sex.

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