Rod Liddle thinks Susie Green should be jailed

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In today's Sunday Times, Rod Liddle states of Susie Green:
"My own view is that she should be in prison for child abuse and assault."

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/this-is-beyond-satire-woke-britain-look-out-or-youll-render-me-obsolete-6xff2xvb2

(don't know how to do share tokens, sorry)

Sorry my typos are more in evidence than usual:

Janice Turners journalism award

www.pressgazette.co.uk/times-withdraws-from-comment-awards-event-over-treatment-of-columnists-janice-turner-melanie-phillips/

It's worth noting that this Mermaids/TELI conference is coming up on 29 March at the University of Bristol:

www.bristol.ac.uk/law/events/2019/rethinking-trans-healthcare-conference.html

Note Session 1: "10:30 – 11:35 Session 1: Children’s Access to Medical Transition Pathways through a Model of Informed Consent?"

I think we all know what that's about.

Acknowledging of course that it was a dramatisation.
In Butterfly there was a scene when the US Dr (cf Spack) asked the mother (cf Green) for a consent for treatment form from the child's UK doctors in order to start prescribing medication etc
(Im going from memory)
The mother (this was a dramatisation) did not have one and it was fudged slightly.
Im not sure if its still available to watch but given how closely Susie Green & Mermaids charity were involved, it may at least offer appropriate questions as to Dr Spack's due dilligence in treating a child from the UK. One presumes he would of course be very aware of NHS guidelines at the time.

Note Session 1: "10:30 – 11:35 Session 1: Children’s Access to Medical Transition Pathways through a Model of Informed Consent?"

On hopes that Professor Carl Heneghan, (Evidence Based Medicine Oxford) is aware.

Professor Carl Heneghan was interviewed on Panorama (linked below) & as a consequence of his analysis concluded that 'informed consent is not possible'

BMJ EBM Spotlight paper:
'Gender-affirming hormone in children and adolescents – Evidence review'
Posted on 25th February 2019

(extract)
"Gender dysphoria occurs when a person experiences discomfort or distress because of a mismatch between their biological sex and gender identity. Gender dysphoria can arise in childhood and adolescent which raises many questions about how best to handle the condition. This post sets out the current evidence for gender-affirming hormones in adolescents and children to aid decision making. (continues)

"Conclusions

There are significant problems with how the evidence for Gender-affirming cross-sex hormone has been collected and analysed that prevents definitive conclusions to be drawn. Similar to puberty blockers, the evidence is limited by small sample sizes; retrospective methods, loss of considerable numbers of patients in follow-up. The majority of studies also lack a control group (only two studies used controls). Interventions have heterogeneous treatment regimes complicating comparisons between studies. Also adherence to the interventions are either not reported or at best inconsistent. Subjective outcomes, which are highly prevalent in the studies, are also prone to bias due to lack of blinding, and many effects can be explained by regression to the mean.

The development of these interventions should, therefore, occur in the context of research. Treatments for under 18 gender dysphoric children and adolescents remain largely experimental. There are a large number of unanswered questions that include the age at start, reversibility; adverse events, long term effects on mental health, quality of life, bone mineral density, osteoporosis in later life and cognition. We wonder whether off label use is appropriate and justified for drugs such as spironolactone which can cause substantial harms, including death. We are also ignorant of the long-term safety profiles of the different GAH regimens. The current evidence base does not support informed decision making and safe practice."
blogs.bmj.com/bmjebmspotlight/2019/02/25/gender-affirming-hormone-in-children-and-adolescents-evidence-review/

BBC 'Trans Kids: Why Medicine Matters'
More young people than ever are exploring their gender identity. Last year, two and a half thousand under-eighteens were referred to NHS England's gender identity clinics for support. Some are hoping to get access to potentially irreversible treatments as soon as they can. Doctors are divided about the best way to help.

Dr Faye Kirkland investigates how much we understand about the care being offered to transgender children."
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0002tw1

Needmoresleep that article about Janice Turner reminds me of a tweet (one of many) today from Joani Walsh

Joani Walsh @ joaniwalshi
More than one person from reality TV has now died by suicide in two weeks. Ditto Parkland. We know suicide can be contagious. And yet there is one issue in which noone wants to accept there may also be contagion? #ROGD

There is a systematic breakdown of safeguarding occurring with regard to trans identifying children.

Organisations like Mermaids can squirm and argue tmits transphobic all they bloody like.

Questions that should be asked and are asked for other similar issues are not asked if the child says they are trans.

Its a blackhole of safeguarding.

Why?

When the story is finally told, it will be interesting to learn about the pressure a few brave organisations resisted, when others caved.

MN, The Times, The Spectator (James Kirkup has acknowledged the support he has had from the editor) The Mail.

Where are the NSPCC, the BBC and so many others.

Where did the pressure come from, why, and why has it been so effective?

Organisations like Mermaids can squirm and argue tmits transphobic all they bloody like.

Questions that should be asked and are asked for other similar issues are not asked if the child says they are trans.

Its a blackhole of safeguarding.

Mermaids Chrity yes, also every professional & political body which has uncritically enabled their influence.

Mermaids Charity does not have professionals experienced & qualified in health care, child psychology, mental health, social care, safeguarding or education.

Its quite extraordinary when the vulnerability of the children they are supporting is acknowledged by everyone not to have key personel on the board of trustees or employed staff.

Re suicides
Its important not to attribute causation to individual cases.

The way that suicides should be discussed is covered by Samaritan's guidance because of the risk of contagion especially in children and vulnerale adults.

There is a need for nuance and care in any discussion.

Many people especiallyTransgender Trend, Littman etc have been highlighting the patterns of ROGD. Dr Polly Carmichael acknowledged last year that social media etc may play a role.

The government indicated last summer that there would be an inquiry into the escalating numbers of children and young people seeking treatment.

There is absolutely a need for this to be prioritised.

Wow Bristol Law faculty are woke.

In December we had Prof Joanne Conaghan’s dense word salad

legalresearch.blogs.bris.ac.uk/2018/12/sex-gender-and-the-trans-debate/

Expertly critiqued here mobile.twitter.com/janeclarejones/status/1075783838217973760

Plus Dr Peter Dunne, who seems to be organising this event.

Off topic, but when googling, I discovered there is a whole industry involving law firms training HR people about transgender rights. I wonder how much conforms with the Equalities Act, and how much is pushing boundaries.

I think, from reading the submissions to the Maria Miller ‘consultation’, that when some people use ‘informed consent’ in this debate they do not use it as it is used elsewhere. I would use ‘informed consent’ to mean me agreeing that a doctor can operate on me and that I understand the risks. The initial suggestion of the operation comes from the doctor, not me.

But I have seen some people in the quest for hormone treatment to use it as meaning ‘I want it, I understand what it does, you should give it to me without question’.

Will try to find the quote later.

Susie green aknowledges that the treatment pathways she promotes cause infertility, but say that "it's not a big deal and has no impact on mental health."

Not a big deal for children to grow up with pre-pubertal genitals and then need surgery. But it would apparently be a major deal for the 80% of transgender adults who decide to retain their penises.

Why is an amateur charity with no experience or expertise in safeguarding, saying there are no safeguarding issues, giving advice to professional organisations responsible for safeguarding and who should be taking the lead on safeguarding?

Talk about arse about face.

Any Links?

“Off topic, but when googling, I discovered there is a whole industry involving law firms training HR people about transgender rights. I wonder how much conforms with the Equalities Act, and how much is pushing boundaries.”
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Am off to look. In the meantime I have found this

www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/public-lecture-transgender-youth-medical-and-mental-health-needs-tickets-58083057990

Bristol+transgender in a search seems to yield all sorts of curiousities

Plus Dr Peter Dunne, who seems to be organising this event.

Sorry if this is already upthread, but Peter Dunne is Co-Convener for Health at TELI. He is also hosting Dr Johanna Olson-Kennedy at Bristol, which will include the public lecture Transgender Children and Medicine: Pathways to Affirmation on the 4th April.

www.bristol.ac.uk/ias/fellowships/meakers/johanna-olson-kennedy/

Plus Dr Peter Dunne, who seems to be organising this event

Dr Peter Dunne has played a key role both in Uk & Ireland.

See TELI, TENI & the Government Trans Inquiry when (from memory) he was an 'independent international advisor'

Needmoresleep I took issue with new guidelines intended to be issued by my law firm that mixed up sex and gender. HR now seems to be sitting on them.

From Needmoresleep's link, it looks like that's might be the same public lecture, only with a different title:

Transgender Youth: Medical and Mental health Needs

On 4 April 2019, Professor Johanna Olson-Kennedy, a global leader in the field of transgender healthcare and the Benjamin Meaker Visiting Professor, will deliver a public lecture in the Lady Hale Moot Court, 8-10 Berkeley Sq, University of Bristol Law School. The lecture will explore key elements of providing comprehensive care for transgender youth, including gender development, recognising signs and symptoms of gender dysphoria, mental health challenges commonly faced by transgender youth, and the use of medications to facilitate gender transitions. The lecture will be compelling listening for all individuals interested in issues relating to transgender children – including clinicians, civil society, educators, policy-makers and parents.

“Off topic, but when googling, I discovered there is a whole industry involving law firms training HR people about transgender rights. I wonder how much conforms with the Equalities Act, and how much is pushing boundaries.”

There's lots of information on the Jess Bradley threads (all of them)

see also:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3374926-What-influence-does-TELI-have-on-government-public-services-and-charities-policies-Co-founders-include-Jess-Bradley-Tara-Hewitt-and-Michelle-Hudson

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3325882-WEP-conference-questions-for-panel-of-trans-rights-advocating-barristers

I discovered there is a whole industry involving law firms training HR people about transgender rights. I wonder how much conforms with the Equalities Act, and how much is pushing boundaries.

I've commented before on law firms doing pro bono work for the benefit of TRAs. Which can spill over into something looking like harassment of those on the sharp end of a legal action. The ethics of this are alarming.

Professor Johanna Olson-Kennedy, a global leader in the field of transgender healthcare

Its worth starting a separate thread about Prof Olsen-Kennedy given she may influence UK healthcare and the treatment of children in this country.

Here is what the British Psychological Society said about 'informed consent' to the inquiry:

Regarding the ‘informed consent’ model.

Many transgender people advocate for the ‘informed consent’ model. This is, in reality, a number of different approaches ranging from something similar to that which most clinics are undertaking at present, to a model in which the type and timing of treatment is determined solely by the patient, if they are capacitous, irrespective of harm.

The moderate position is that capacitous patients should not have to prove themselves to clinicians in order to access treatment. Many people point to this being practiced in the US and elsewhere where three or four sessions of counselling are all that is required. This supports the right of the patient to choose, and to make their own mistakes if they chose poorly. There are two issues with this: First, at present clinicians are responsible to the Society and HCPC for any recommendations they make irrespective of whether the patient has also consented. Indeed it has always been, and should always remain the case, that clinicians act and make recommendations in what they believe to be the best interests of the patient, even if the patient does not always agree. The patient may seek a second opinion; may make a complaint, etc., but to ask clinicians to always agree with patients simply on principle undermines the very heart of the role of the clinician in providing safe practice.

Secondly, the Society is aware that many of its members are not acting privately as in the US, and that when patients are seeking non-private services they are being financed by a third party – not uncommonly the NHS. In this instance it would seem reasonable for clinicians to endeavour to ensure that that which is being asked for is necessary and efficacious; so as not to spend someone else’s money on what the patient wants, but may not need.

Consequently the Society welcomes an approach which allows the greatest amount of patient autonomy while still allowing clinicians to ensure clinically appropriate provision of services.

This was the sort of thing I was picking up. Last week, so you missed it. £150 for nonmembers

www.hrinlaw.co.uk/calendar/event/view?id=102

And more work for lawyers picked up on the same google page. (Further off topic but interesting as they seem to be lawyers who advise independent schools.)

www.vwv.co.uk/news-and-events/blog/school-law-brief/your-obligations-for-transgender-pupils

'Gender reassignment' is defined in the Act as applying to anyone who is undergoing, has undergone or is proposing to undergo a process, or part of a process of reassigning their sex by changing physiological or other attributes. This means that in order to be protected under the Act, a pupil will not necessarily have to be undertaking a medical procedure to change their sex but must be taking steps to live in the opposite gender, or proposing to do so, e.g. wearing clothes associated with the opposite sex and adopting easily identifiable appearance traits.

Sounds pretty close to self ID to me, but I am not a lawyer.

I’m a lawyer but this is not my field. What I do know though is that we actively look to write articles which will gain traction in the market place. For instance at the moment people are encouraging me to write articles about Brexit even though this will be entirely pointless because all of the truthful information is available on one of three peer-reviewed websites and anything I say will be speculation .
I guess I’ve been doing this a long time and I can tell the difference between an article that is disseminating professional experience from an article that is trying to differentiate your firm from others in the marketplace by offering strong opinions on a topic that clients identify as high risk and therefore as one where they have need of guidance.
So what the 2016 Article by that firm of solicitors tells me is that at that time at least they considered that it was safer for schools to be shown to be bending over backwards to service the needs of transgender pupils than to be upholding the rights of girls under the Equalities act

Interesting.

I assume that if Teli and those with similar world-views give enough talks, hold enough conferences, get people to write articles like this one, and teach enough students, you get changes in behaviour without test cases and changes in law.