Grayson Perry irks me

[everythingisbetterafteranap]

Not sure if I'm going to articulate this well, so bear with me.

I was reading a Guardian article on a therapist who is married to the artist Grayson Perry. Reasonably interesting article with a focus on self awareness as a parent.

But it got me thinking again on why so many bright, intelligent women so readily accept men dressing up as women in such a garish pantoesque way. Where is the feminist critique of this?

Grayson Perry has his alter ego 'Claire' who looks like the silliest version of female you could find. Why is this acceptable and not challenged? Would Grayson Perry be lauded for having a black alter ego with big lips and exaggerated gestures? There is even an annual 'let's dress Claire' competition at St Martins art college. Why aren't the students there questioning this?

What is this really all about? It doesn't feel female empowering to me.

Whatever GP's motivations for his dressing up as "Claire", he's never struck me as a man who hates or fears women. I know people who've worked with him, nothing bad to say. Too bad his honesty and self-knowledge is so rare amongst middle-aged men who like a frock and a bit of lippy.

I know nothing about Grayson Perry but the underlying force behind a man finding wearing a dress to be erotic is misogyny.

Exactly.

I think Grayson Perry knows that very well, and talks about it. But still, the sexual compulsion is huge.

But is that because it's not quite so glaringly obvious it is sexual? Like there's a line of what sexual fetish is acceptable to walk into work/down the street or not

There are generally very clear lines of what is acceptable to walk into work/down the street. Level of body coverage being the obvious one.

I don't know what the motives of the person at the opera were. I don't assume to know what was in his head and he didn't make me in the least bit uncomfortable. It is not for me to say he should not be allowed to dress like that.

Sorry, where's, wears and weres all over the place. Lol

@oldcrone

And it's this bit And I can't imagine men's underpants giving the same thrill as lingerie seems to for some men that says it all. Its a mens sexual fetish.
Women can wear trousers and flat shoes and a tie and not be called a man or dressing like a man. Men who cross dress seem to go for the most ridiculous women's outfits, over enthusiastic makeup and then a frilly pant. Actually a true crossdresser shpuld actually dress as you just described! Because you are a woman and are not a crossdresser yet wear men style clothes. I wear leggings or jeans...Why are no male cross dressers wearing "normal" boring, every day women's or men's clothes?!

I wear leggings or jeans...Why are no male cross dressers wearing "normal" boring, every day women's or men's clothes?!

Because they are boring? I don't wear leggings or jeans for that reason.

This is just a personal view but those of you who are attributing malevolent reasons and/or saying Perry is roping you into his sexual fantasy are you sure you don't just have a problem with people who find jeans and leggings boring? Any departure from that must be analysed and criticised in a negative way.

I know this will be denied but that is my impression.

Look. he's as much of a woman as my 'tranny mate' Steve is. Claire has better taste (which tells you a lot about Steve...)

I have zero issues with cross dressers who are men in frocks. They are as welcome to wear a dress as I am, or as welcome to wear trousers as I am. I do not care.

Claire doesn't always dress outrageously. When they were filiming at Liberty's a few years ago Claire was filmed browsing. He looked like any slightly bored, older secretary on her lunch. Sensible shoes, pleated skirt, blouse and cardigan. Claire only dresses up when on telly, doing shows etc.

My mate Steve does that on weekdays too. Shops in everday sensible womens clothes, including jeans and a t-shirt!

So not all cross dresers go for the weird way out clothing!

Perry has never claimed to be a woman- far from it.

Lass you seem very good at taking quotes out of context. You also seem to be doing a lot of discussing for someone who isn't interested.

I suggested four reasons for men to cross dress - I've added a 5th one here, and there may be others. There is also crossover between the groups.

1. Men who just like to dress like that, in the same way as a woman might choose to wear either a pretty dress or jeans and t-shirt - just because they like dressing that way.

1. Men who think they're women, or who think that wearing a dress makes them a woman.

1. Men who have a fetish and become aroused by cross dressing.

1. Men who do it to parody women - like blacking up.

1. Men who are predatory and do it in order to invade women's spaces.

I think Perry falls into group 3 from what he's said. The only group I find acceptable is group 1 - also 3 as long as they confine it to private spaces amongst other consenting adults.

LassOfFyvie oh ffs yes im sure and I didn't mean thats only what I wear every single day of my life...

It's Perry saying its sexual. Perry. Not people, him, himself.

Blimey. You really don't want to believe him do you?

Geraldine, I am so sorry your post was ignored by people doing exactly what your family and professionals did to you. I believe you.

So if a woman dresses in such a way that ample cleavage and thigh is exposed, and gets a thrill out of the reactions she gets, is that unacceptable also? Because I know a lot of women that do that.

And when you do, poppet, then you’ll understand.

I still don't understand what we are supposed to understand so I must be a poppet.

(..hangs head in shame)

What's am I missing about Greyson Perry's wife's name?

Anyone?

To be fair to GP, I think what is being overlooked here is that he is am extremely savvy old bird and cross-crossing had been a very successful way of promoting his work. (See the posters advertising his recent exhibition in Paris.). Would he have attracted the same level of interest wearing black jeans and a t-shirt?

Lass you seem very good at taking quotes out of context. You also seem to be doing a lot of discussing for someone who isn't interested

I'm very interested in the way certain feminist posters are attempting to police (good FWR phrase there) what other people wear. And indeed contribute to the thread.

Jessica

Can you please explain how is that relevant to cross dressing fetishism?

Perry doesn't show cleavage and thigh.

Geraldine, I am so sorry your post was ignored by people doing exactly what your family and professionals did to you. I believe you.

I’m on several threads and missed it. Not addressing it doesn’t mean we are in any way ignoring harm that occurred to Geraldine in her personal experience, or a denial of what her fathers intentions were. I’m of course sorry any child or woman had that experience. However, you cannot use that dreadfully sad story to make comparisons to what is being discussed here. I think it’s out of order to frame this conversation the way you have just because others have a different opinion on Graysons cross dressing.

I'm very interested in the way certain feminist posters are attempting to police (good FWR phrase there) what other people wear.

Read my last post, Lass. People can wear wtf they want. But I don't want to be a non-consensual part of someone's fetish.

Thank you for understanding trousering. That was sort of the point of my post.

I'm very interested in the way certain feminist posters are attempting to police (good FWR phrase there) what other people wear. And indeed contribute to the thread.

We are taking a man that says dressing in women's clothing is a sexual fetish at his word.

And if you dress in women's clothing as a fetish, everyone that comes into contact with said person with said fetish becomes part of the sexual fetish of that person. Whether you like it or not.

Can you please explain how is that relevant to cross dressing fetishism?

Others have said the issue is its a sexual fetish he derives sexual pleasure from because of the reactions of others. That’s the comparison I’m making.

dressing in women's clothing

My issue is it shouldn’t be referred to as ‘woman’s clothing’.

JessicaWakefieldSVH
So if a woman dresses in such a way that ample cleavage and thigh is exposed, and gets a thrill out of the reactions she gets, is that unacceptable also? Because I know a lot of women that do that

Bit of a quandary for those criticising Perry to answer.

They can't say "yes" because that is "policing what women wear" .

There's the fall back that such women are so conditioned by a patriarchical society that they only value themselves by being objectified by the male gaze and as such are blameless.

I love Grayson Perry. Please leave him alone. I don’t care how he dresses it’s what he produces that is the important.

What's am I missing about Greyson Perry's wife's name?

Anyone?

Not a scooby.

Jessica you have just lectured me for mentioning the reason Geraldine posted. Maybe lecture her directly about how she is out of order for making her point too now.