Grayson Perry irks me

[everythingisbetterafteranap]

Not sure if I'm going to articulate this well, so bear with me.

I was reading a Guardian article on a therapist who is married to the artist Grayson Perry. Reasonably interesting article with a focus on self awareness as a parent.

But it got me thinking again on why so many bright, intelligent women so readily accept men dressing up as women in such a garish pantoesque way. Where is the feminist critique of this?

Grayson Perry has his alter ego 'Claire' who looks like the silliest version of female you could find. Why is this acceptable and not challenged? Would Grayson Perry be lauded for having a black alter ego with big lips and exaggerated gestures? There is even an annual 'let's dress Claire' competition at St Martins art college. Why aren't the students there questioning this?

What is this really all about? It doesn't feel female empowering to me.

However, you cannot use that dreadfully sad story to make comparisons to what is being discussed here. I think it’s out of order to frame this conversation the way you have just because others have a different opinion on Graysons cross dressing

It is a bit like saying in a discussion on gay adoption that the tragic case of Elsie Scully-Hicks means gay couples should not adopt.

Lass and Jessica, you are building your own quandaries there, I think people will be happy to leave you stuck in them.

I'm happy to leave you stuck with your views too.

Your last comment is an excellent example of the "echo chamber" accusation often made about FWR Debate welcome as long as it supports the rad fem concensus.

Others have said the issue is its a sexual fetish he derives sexual pleasure from because of the reactions of others. That’s the comparison I’m making.

I think that's an interesting question Jessica. But I think the real question is what sort of reactions are the woman and the cross-dressing man trying to provoke, and are they comparable?

A woman who dresses provocatively might be looking for admiring looks from men who she is hoping will be aroused by her appearance or attracted to her. She may also be looking for envious looks from other women in a 'I wish I looked like that' sort of way. Perhaps she is also trying to shock older or more prudish people she comes into contact with.

What is a cross-dressing man looking for? The shock element might be the same, but otherwise, what reactions does he want to provoke? He's not going to be convincing enough to get either the envious looks from women or the admiring looks from men. Is it just to shock?

Are there any famous female cross dressers?

There's Vesta Tilley, of course:

www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/portrait/mw206377/Vesta-Tilley

Can't think of any contemporary examples, though.

Trousering, why can’t you have this conversation without getting personal and aggressive. You were comparing people in this thread who have no issue with GP’s cross dressing to those people in Geraldine’s life who ignored her fathers harm. That’s not a fair thing to do. I don’t think GP cross dressing is harmful to women he might come into contact with. I disagree with you on that. I don’t wish to compare it to Geraldine’s experience. They’re different.

I love Grayson Perry. Please leave him alone. I don’t care how he dresses it’s what he produces that is the important.

Not really, when he is forcing people into his sexual fantasy when interacting with them. We are not discussing art we are discussing the sexual fetishes of men.

Is it just to shock? I think for many it can be. My gay friends dressed in a similar way because they enjoy it, they enjoy shocking others by breaking out of gender norms, and they did enjoy making others uncomfortable, partially because that had been done to them for so long just for expressing themselves in ways most men did not.

I don’t think GP cross dressing is harmful to women he might come into contact with.

If he asked 'would you mind awfully participating in my sexual fetish' then it would not be harmful.

But does he actually ask anyone if they want to participate?

Are people being ‘forced’ into a fantasy though? By just interacting with him dressed this way. Do you think that happens a lot when we won’t even know it? And do you think it’s harmful only when it’s known as in his case, or do you think when you’re around any and all cross dressers that they are also forcing you into a fantasy? These are genuine questions.

I appreciate others have different opinions to me but I am listening and thinking about what you’re saying, even if it does not change my own thoughts on it.

Geraldine said it. Geraldine said in response to posters saying that cross dressing is not sexual that she experienced exactly that. The same as what is happening here happened to her. She said that is the point of her post. I said I am sorry to see that happen here too. And I am really sorry to see how vociferously people deny even Perry's own words about his sexuality.

Feminism? My arse

@HappydaysArehere

I love Grayson Perry. Please leave him alone.

Be careful about statements like this. Putting people on a pedestal without allowing debate isn't healthy.

If he asked 'would you mind awfully participating in my sexual fetish' then it would not be harmful

But does he actually ask anyone if they want to participate?

Well given those of you who are critical of Perry on the basis that you say he himself says it is a fetish have been given a clear warning. You presumably can avoid any situation where you will ever have to encounter him or his work. To that extent you have been asked.

Not really, when he is forcing people into his sexual fantasy when interacting with them. We are not discussing art we are discussing the sexual fetishes of men.

How is he? How is he forcing someone to interact with him any more than say the women who go out for the night round here dressed in mini skirts, bras, sky high platform shoes with the obligatory trout pout and odd eyebrows that seem to be in fashion? Is there a sexual element in how they dress? In some cases I'd say yes. They appear to be some sort of hybrid between a porn actress and a cartoon character but really? So what? Are they looking for a reaction? I suppose so but I just carry on with my business. I've not been forced to react in a certain way have I? Same as GP. He can't force you to react to his appearance. Just ignore him if you want.

It's no good saying, as is always said on FWR, that boys should be encouraged to wear whatever they want but that wearing a dress doesn't make them female and then scream "fetish" when they wear a dress. Obviously you don't believe that boys can wear dresses at all.

You presumably can avoid any situation where you will ever have to encounter him or his work. To that extent you have been asked.

That is the whole point of trans activism - to stop women being able to avoid what Perry stands for

The same as what is happening here happened to her. I don’t think that’s accurate.

Please stop with the policing of ‘feminism’. You don’t decide what that is.

I'm just coming back to this thread now, so can I get some clarification

Has Grayson Perry indicated his sexual fetish gratification (which he has acknowledged) is from

1. His humiliation from other men not liking what he is wearing and hating him
2. Or women's discomfort at his presence dressed as a girl
3. Or both
4. Or doesn't anyone know?

This is all pretty removed from challenging male masculinity

So if he hadn't of said it was a fetish would you be ok with it? Would you accept it as a person wearing clothes?

If it wear a man just wearing a plain old dress is that ok?

Or do you simply have a problem with any man stepping outside of gender stereo types?

So it's wrong to enforce gender stereotypes onto women but not men?

It's no good saying, as is always said on FWR, that boys should be encouraged to wear whatever they want but that wearing a dress doesn't make them female and then scream "fetish" when they wear a dress. Obviously you don't believe that boys can wear dresses at all

There seems to be a distinction between "good" cross dressers who wear dresses simply because dresses are just so much nicer than boring jeans and "bad" cross dressers who wear them as a fetish.

One would need to see inside the individual's head to determine if a cross dresser was "good" or "bad". Posters are saying Perry has told us his is in the "bad" category. By that argument he has given anyone who is made uncomfortable by him full knowledge to avoid him like the plague. Seems fair to both sides.

I see the argument of GP challenging toxic male masculinity through exploration of dress styles entirely different to wearing dresses to humiliate women and have sexual excitement from it. Those two things are worlds apart.

But I don't know what GPs fetish position is and if it's his humiliation from other men (as per toxic male masculinity) or humiliation of women.

LassOfFyvie

Exactly.

Though I don't think they would ever accept someone as a "good" cross dresser, despite what they argue when protesting against young people transing. Then, exploring gender, disbanding stereotypes is all good, so long as they stay out of the ladies toilets. Now it seems that there's an invisible point at which the same person becomes a cross dressing fetishist. It's quite bizarre really.

If I were cynical I might think that it's just an attempt to control other people and how they look, enforcing stereotypes rather than breaking them down.

Nah. Someone, anyone, dressing to humiliate others in a public arena so they can masturbate to it isn't a good thing. That's a major power trip.

Presuming consent is so dangerous.

My boss posting out before a meeting that he intends to turn up in full gimp gear so he can nip off to the loo for a quick wank at my discomfort doesn't make it ok.

Just no

How many female to male cross dressers are there? It seems to me its male to female. Strange

I don't know but I once worked in a restaurant where a large part of the clientele were (mostly young) lesbians. They had a very specific "boy" look:
Low slung boys jeans, studded belts, white vests (looked like boys vests), army dog tags, leather jackets or Dickies type utilitarian work wear. Men's sneakers or boots.
There was definitely a sexual element to this look-they dressed in what they found sexy, and was sexy to each other.
I think it's quite a sexy look too (think Shane from the L Word).

I get what pp are saying about men practising their fetish without consent, and the idea of being a woman=humiliation, but I think human sexuality is qutte odd sometimes. Lots of people of both sexes can get turned on by weird things. That sounds like an admission haha!
I'm actually quite vanilla, but I can't get in a tizz about the fact that putting on a pair of women's frillys will get some men going, or that young lesbians get off on dressing in boys clothes.
Obviously if Perry gets done for frottaging or something I'll change my opinion, but he's not invading women's spaces and he knows he's a man, so for now , however unappealing I might think he looks, he's not bothering me.