Grayson Perry irks me

[everythingisbetterafteranap]

Not sure if I'm going to articulate this well, so bear with me.

I was reading a Guardian article on a therapist who is married to the artist Grayson Perry. Reasonably interesting article with a focus on self awareness as a parent.

But it got me thinking again on why so many bright, intelligent women so readily accept men dressing up as women in such a garish pantoesque way. Where is the feminist critique of this?

Grayson Perry has his alter ego 'Claire' who looks like the silliest version of female you could find. Why is this acceptable and not challenged? Would Grayson Perry be lauded for having a black alter ego with big lips and exaggerated gestures? There is even an annual 'let's dress Claire' competition at St Martins art college. Why aren't the students there questioning this?

What is this really all about? It doesn't feel female empowering to me.

What id assume a female crossdresser would be wearing is stuff bought in "men's section" shops.

Does that include buying their jeans and t-shirts from the men's section? Because I do that all the time.

I realise that some people here regard what Perry is doing as a kind of playfulness - a way of challenging masculinity by embodying an extreme, stylised version of femininity. I think for others of us it feels more like a mocking of femininity, a cruel parody. "Claire" is supposed to be a little girl but doesn't look like any little girl I know - I wonder how real girls feel about seeing a grown man dressed in this way. Do they think he's making fun of them?

Men who cross dress for a fetish and insist that others participate in their fetish are also unacceptable. Men who cross-dress in order to mock and parody women and make them uncomfortable are unacceptable

You can see inside people's heads can you? I once sat through a very long opera sitting next to a very obvious cross- dresser. I had spotted him as I walked into the theatre and obviously all the way to our respective seats. Beyond thinking "blimey- that takes some nerve" I had no idea what his motives were. He didn't at any point have an orgasm.

I can expand further on this if you're interested

I'm not btw.

Yeh that's what I mean. Lie of course women wear trousers but they are generally "women's trousers". It would be noticeable if we all started dressing like our husbands, dads or grandads etc. And I'm not sure how it could be exaggerated in the way male to female cross dressers dress.
It seems to me that there is a sexual element to it in some way.

I'm not btw.

I didn't think you would be, which is why I didn't expand further in that post.

What about Geraldine's post above LasaifFyvie?

Do you have any thoughts on that experience?

That's a bit different to yours at the opera isn't it?

We're not talking about David Bowie or Kurt Cobain wearing a dress

I see Bowie is still being roped into support the gender critical case. Aside from the fact the argument is rather weak given Bowie's costumes were stage props rather than every day wear it's ironic a man who had sex with a 14 year old girl is held up as some sort of icon in comparison with Grayson Perry.

You can see inside people's heads can you?

I was thinking of stuff like this. I don't think you have to be a mind-reader to know this is a fetish.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/nov/03/my-life-in-sex

I let the sales ladies know I am shopping for myself. As I pay, I smile and wink, as if to say, “I am enjoying this even if you aren’t.”

I see Bowie is still being roped into support the gender critical case.

No, he was used as an example of a man who would wear a dress without claiming to be a woman. Like Eddie Izzard used to, until he decided he was actually 'trans' and had the right to harass teenage girls in the ladies' toilets.

I wonder if we all were so accepting and it being so normal for a man to dress like a woman and we didn't take a double look or whatever, people like Perry wouldn't get the humiliation he requires to fulfil his fetish because well, it's the norm.

Observing whether someone who is cross dressing is having an orgasm or not, isn't, fully enough, the arbiter of whether or not cross dressing is a fetish.

I wonder if we all were so accepting and it being so normal for a man to dress like a woman and we didn't take a double look or whatever, people like Perry wouldn't get the humiliation he requires to fulfil his fetish because well, it's the norm.

Well yes.

But they would then have to find some other way to indicate that they are to be humiliated 'like a woman' in order to get aroused.

Perhaps wear prosthetic breasts? I don't know, they will find a way.

Because it's not the clothes, it's the power dynamic. The clothes are just a (current) marker.

Ok cool, so it is a sexual fetish.

Whisky2014
So according to you, I'm a cross dresser?

No, i didnt say you were but I'm wondering how a woman can be a crossdresser. Are there any famous female cross dressers?

Observing whether someone who is cross dressing is having an orgasm or not, isn't, fully enough, the arbiter of whether or not cross dressing is a fetish

I and I think Weetabix and Jessica don't particularly care whether it is a fetish. I'm not interested in analysing other people's motives for dressing the way they do.

Geraldine's father's case is specific to Geraldine and her father. You cannot extrapolate from that that Perry and the man sitting next to me at the opera are causing harm (well you , personally, can if you want but don't rope me in)

"Claire" is supposed to be a little girl

I think she's actually supposed to be a rag doll. (See also Alan Measles, his teddy.) I do genuinely see it as a form of artistic expression, and all that I've read and heard about Perry supports this.

I admit I could be wrong, of course. Men do sometimes involve children in their sexual fetishes and that is abusive, no question, and completely unacceptable. I just don't agree that's what Perry is doing.

I support gender non-conformity. I don't think you have to be trans or a fetishist to be a non-conformist. I am against gender conformity and the way we are supposed to fit ourselves into boxes. Many women cross dress by wearing clothes from the men's section and it shouldn't be a big deal. We should do away with the sections altogether and let clothes be clothes (as the campaign goes).

No, he was used as an example of a man who would wear a dress without claiming to be a woman

Perry has never claimed to be a woman- far from it. Still failing to see any merit in setting a hebephile up as better than Grayson Perry.

I and I think Weetabix and Jessica don't particularly care whether it is a fetish. I'm not interested in analysing other people's motives for dressing the way they do.

But is that because it's not quite so glaringly obvious it is sexual? Like there's a line of what sexual fetish is acceptable to walk into work/down the street or not. Someone dressed as a baby for example or something like this?

I and I think Weetabix and Jessica don't particularly care whether it is a fetish. I'm not interested in analysing other people's motives for dressing the way they do.

Of course.
I do care about a sexual fetish that relies on the humiliation of women.

Male sexual dominance is prevalent. Catcalling, sexual harassment, street harassment, the objectification of women and girls, and, of course, treating women like rag dolls in pornography.

Deciding that a fetish which relies on all that and is supported by that isn't a problem, is of course - your prerogative.

I support gender non-conformity. I don't think you have to be trans or a fetishist to be a non-conformist. I am against gender conformity and the way we are supposed to fit ourselves into boxes. Many women cross dress by wearing clothes from the men's section and it shouldn't be a big deal. We should do away with the sections altogether and let clothes be clothes (as the campaign goes).

Same here.

Well I bought all my DD’s everyday clothes in the boys sections when she was a toddler and young child, her teen friends mention it when they see photos. Was she a cross dresser? Am I a fetishist? Is it about the intentions of the wearer?
I still can’t get worked up about a man who gets off on dressing like a doll.

If dresses were gender neutral attire then the man with this fetish would not wear them because the point of the fetish is to appear as a woman and thus be "humiliated". It is the humiliation that turns them on. Not the clothes. The root of finding "appearing like a woman" to be a humiliating thing is misogyny.

I know nothing about Grayson Perry but the underlying force behind a man finding wearing a dress to be erotic is misogyny.

If being a woman wasn't perceived as a humiliation it wouldn't work. If dresses wear not classed as women's attire it wouldn't work.

I wear clothes for the sole purpose of being warm and comfortable these days. I really, truly give no shits what other people think as long as they are clean and go on my body comfortably... I'm not trying to put anything out there. It's very freeing. And mostly it's "men's" jumpers from Tesco because they are larger and warmer than "women's".

Mostly I'm placemarking as the discussion is interesting.

No, i didnt say you were

OK, I misunderstood. I was replying to this:
of course women wear trousers but they are generally "women's trousers". It would be noticeable if we all started dressing like our husbands

I wear men's jeans (some of the time) and I dress like my husband (jeans and t-shirts). I don't think of myself as a cross dresser, just someone who likes practical and comfortable clothes.

I'm wondering how a woman can be a crossdresser. Are there any famous female cross dressers?

I don't think it works the same way for women, although women wearing a suit and tie would be the equivalent. And I can't imagine men's underpants giving the same thrill as lingerie seems to for some men.

In answer to your questions: No, I don't know, I think it is. ok good for you.