Pronouns - an invasion of privacy?

[abuseofpowercomesasnosurprise]

I read on here a few days ago about one of the members at a meeting where everyone had to go around and declare their pronouns, despite the group consisting of 90% women. Isn't it a rather rude invasion of privacy ask this of people? A bit like asking someone they've just met to declare their sexual preferences, or their social class background, or their ethnicity, or perhaps more pertinently their mental health status? I object not least because it forces self-definition through gender ideology's own language, to suggests that women using default pronouns conform to and are happy with oppressive gender stereotypes, but because it's not anyone's business . Why should it matter to anyone else if I like wearing high heels and make-up or doing DIY, or even - shock horror - both?! It's bad enough when they ask for 'gender identity' on job application forms, but at least they're private. Isn't this violating some sort of code of conduct - in the workplace, for example? Isn't the point of equality and diversity policies to make issues like 'gender identity' irrelevant?

Would be tempted to insist on something exotic and unpronouncable just to take the piss, such as 'xcey' with a xhosa click in it.

I agree! Something from one of those African language that has lots of tongue clicking in it.

I would find it odd that a group consisting mostly of women were made to say whether they identified as women. Did anyone refuse to take party on the charade?

This is yet another way the transcult reinforces its ideology. Pronoun circles make young people announce and therefore cement their identities.

I look forward to these being consigned to history.

I don’t see it as an invasion of privacy more overkill. Most people use the pronouns they present as. Even with trans people who don’t pass, usually you would know what their pronouns are likely to be.

I accept there are non-binary people and some people who identify pronouns which aren’t the ones you would probably guess but to make everyone give their pronouns just in case is OTT. Someone should be made to feel comfortable to say when introducing themselves as part of the general introduction if they have particular pronouns but I think this is a bit unnecessary.

I don’t see it as an invasion of my privacy to say I am she/her - it’s bloody obvious.

dudsville It was on another thread, I don't think anyone objected, but it took ages to go around the whole group for a pointless exercise in virtue-signalling. Surely there's a better way to accommodate any trans people present. I just imagine what it would be like when black people were much more in the minority and if they were singled out in this way, it's just embarrassingly right on, do trans people even want this?

YES genedr identity and sex should be totally irrelevant
Yes it is bullying and victim blaming to force women to accept a gender identity
It is incredibly offensive to ask to be treated as a woman when women spend their lives trying to be treated as a man
The only thing I ask as a woman is respect for my body. The right to participate in normal life without being threatened/ having panic attacks.

So that include for example The right to have a heart attack recognised even though the symptoms are not Male . Or Since visibility of people like yourself encourages participation in sport, that extends to the right for female sports at the highest level

McTufty Yes, I'm happy enough for people to be made comfortable to declare their own pronouns, but the idea of having to announce mine in front of a group of people really gets my goat. I don't want the fact that I'm a woman drawn attention to if it's irrelevant within the context.

I dread this happening. I genuinely don’t care - I don’t “identify” as anyone but apparently it is dismissing teh feelz to say this, we must all participate so individuals aren’t outed or feel excluded. I can’t summon a response that is both honest and doesn’t hurt teh feelz!

I am one of the many, many dictionary definition of non-binary people who just don’t think it’s a thing.

Since gender identity is a belief and not a material fact, the pronoun ritual is akin to forcing everyone to swear oaths of allegiance or participate in catechism.

It’s a power play upon the non-aligned or the non-believers.

I accept there are non-binary people

I don't. But I accept that there are plenty of people who need to get off Tumblr and grow the fuck up.

That’s a thought though. “I am non-binary and reject all pronouns for myself. I respect other peoples though right to choose their pronouns, and ask them to respect my need for no pronouns.”

The pronouning thing just doesn't make sense. If I'm in the room with you then it's just rude for me to refer to you in the 3rd person.

Bearsinmotion At first I genuinely thought ideas such as non-binary/agender were a good thing, as I always felt like that too, very strongly and for as long as I can remember. Even before all the TRA coercive control tactics started, though, I couldn't bring myself to demand that other people adhere to my pronouns, it felt so self-centred and egotistical to ask people to break the habit of a lifetime and replace words which recur so frequently in conversation with something made up. It would be like asking people to replace 'the' or 'and' with something else. You're setting yourself up for failure doing this, because you're constantly making those you interact with check themselves all the time, particularly if you don't pass. I have an old friend who is trans and I consistently try to adhere to their pronouns out of respect, but it's just completely ingrained to refer to them with the pronouns of their sex and it's a constant struggle to not 'misgender' them.

At least a generation of people will know the meaning of the word pronoun.

There's that.

BickerinBrattle
Since gender identity is a belief and not a material fact, the pronoun ritual is akin to forcing everyone to swear oaths of allegiance or participate in catechism.
I completely agree.

When I see a person, I determine their sex in my head. I use a pronoun specific to their sex to make language easier. This is the way it’s always been in the English language. It’s only recently that pronouns are referring to someone’s gender rather than their sex. Given that someone’s gender identity only exists inside their head it makes sense to the majority of the world to use a sex-specific pronoun for a person, and I argue that one cannot “misgender” someone particularly at a first encounter. See for example the Game Store “It’s MAAM!” How was the game store guy meant to know? It could have been a cross-dressing man happy with sir for all he knew. TRAs would argue we are all meant to ask beforehand but who has time for that?

If someone wants to publicly declare that for reasons only known to them, they no longer want to be referred to as the pronoun for their sex, but one for their gender then that’s their prerogative, but assuming everyone has issues with this, or making everyone take on this perceived difficulty as part of daily life is a colossal waste of time. If it has to be done in a meeting, for reasons of inclusivity, just have someone say “does anyone have anything to declare?” at the start of the meeting.

Personally I would answer “please use the pronouns you see fit to apply to my biological sex”. And in no way whatsoever would I ever declare myself, or be required to declare myself as “cis”.

That’s the thing isn’t it OP. If pronouns are based on sex it will usually be obvious. But it’s a whole different story if they are based on gender. No-one can “pass” as non-binary or the other many, many possible genders. But if I am forced to define my pronouns based on gender then presumably I am entitled to have none, given my speshul status under the trans umbrella?

Yeah this would really grate me too.

I wouldn't go so far as to say "it's an invasion of privacy" I think that's overreaching, trans people (if there were any in the room) love telling people they're trans and love forcing counter-intuitive pronouns on everyone.
I don't see how asking non-trans people whether they're trans or not is an invasion of your privacy either.

It's the presumption the everyone in the room must have a gender identity or special pronoun of some sort when hardly anyone does and that would make me feel "othered".
I'm simply releived I don't have to go along with this crap in my life, sorry you have to!

Some places (Brighton council) issue pronoun badges so people can see what your preferred pronoun is.

I'd like my badge to read "I use pronouns that indicate the person's sex, thank you".

Haha, this just came to mind.

Link at 3:12

I don't want the fact that I'm a woman drawn attention to if it's irrelevant within the context.

When I analysed it this was exactly my problem, I've spent 30 years fighting for my sex to be irrelevant to my work, to be made to announce it at the beginning of meetings goes against all that. I think I would say this if ever asked.

DpWm I still think it is an invasion of privacy, on a personal level anyway if not for everyone. I struggle with my own issues around gender, having to declare it publicly because an ideology I don't agree demands it would make me feel really uncomfortable. Bit like being an atheist but having to declare yourself publicly as a Christian because that's the default in this country.

I don't want the fact that I'm a woman drawn attention to if it's irrelevant within the context

Agree with this. When it feels as though we're finally getting somewhere with making sex irrelevant to work (eg using actors rather than actors/actresses, waiting staff rather than waiters/waitresses) this feels like a big step backwards.

We have 'pronoun badges' at my work. Nobody in our dept wears one though.