Pronouns - an invasion of privacy?

[abuseofpowercomesasnosurprise]

I read on here a few days ago about one of the members at a meeting where everyone had to go around and declare their pronouns, despite the group consisting of 90% women. Isn't it a rather rude invasion of privacy ask this of people? A bit like asking someone they've just met to declare their sexual preferences, or their social class background, or their ethnicity, or perhaps more pertinently their mental health status? I object not least because it forces self-definition through gender ideology's own language, to suggests that women using default pronouns conform to and are happy with oppressive gender stereotypes, but because it's not anyone's business . Why should it matter to anyone else if I like wearing high heels and make-up or doing DIY, or even - shock horror - both?! It's bad enough when they ask for 'gender identity' on job application forms, but at least they're private. Isn't this violating some sort of code of conduct - in the workplace, for example? Isn't the point of equality and diversity policies to make issues like 'gender identity' irrelevant?

NotBadConsidering
Exactly. It's just asking too much of everyone. It's hard enough for me to remember why I walked into a room in the first place without expecting me to remember to be super careful not to provoke any hurty feelz with my slap dash mispronouning

Lalallama & EverardDigby Yes, when you think about the struggle for equality for other groups, there was a completely different strategy - making matters such as race, sex, disability irrelevant and focussing on the qualities of the individual and their equal rights, rather than demands to re-frame the whole social structure, language and science down to our everyday interactions. I know the struggle for gay rights features being flamboyantly out and proud, but on a day to day basis gay people don't demand everyone declare their sexuality to each other on first meeting in a context where it's nobody's business.

We sometimes have this where I work I tend to say nothing and gesture that the pronoun sharing can pass to the next person. It does sometimes get picked up on and my response is that insisting on pronouns represents a barrier to full participation for people who do not have English as a native language. Tends to shut down that discussion.

Chrysanthemum5 That's a superb tactic and will make the wokebros heads explode as you've outdone them!

Yes I sense they'd like to force me to comply but can't be seen to be racist. Plus they are poor at critical thinking so actually there are holes in my argument but they can't find them.

Is it wrong to admit I quite enjoy their confusion

I find it a very strange thing to ask someone their pronouns. I'm there in the room, so call me Happy. The only time you are likely to use a pronoun is when you are talking about me not in my presence so why does it matter.

To me it feels similar to saying "I'm Sally from IT and I identify as disabled." Probably not relevant for most meetings.

I'd like to have the courage to say "my pronouns are it and its"
Nobody in a professional workplace is going to refer to someone as it.

Chrysanthemum5 Gotta get your kicks where you can. I think this can be applied as a good general rule, if anyone is going too far with identity politics, then simply outdo them - it's so easy to find something to be offended by if you engage in that mindset.

The pronoun badges drive me insane. So I have to be instructed how to refer to you when you're not actually there to police it in person? Ugh. Just fuck off with your controlling bullshit. Who says I want to talk about you at all? It's so insanely narcissistic.

Theres a response doing the rounds;

''My pronouns are sex based, like my biology''.

My pronoun badge would just say "any".

Name badges should be enough. We don’t need to know anything else.

Op I absolutely agree. And it's even worse when it's on email signatures!

@chrysanthemum what is the wording you use? I really want to nail it. Is it because pronouns are a grammar term that might not be understood by non native speakers?

userschmoozer I kind of like this, but then again it's still forcing someone to declare a position on this whole issue in public. If there was a standard gender critical pronoun/response, that would get the message across but also be very 'outing'. Could always reclaim 'terf' I suppose - would that work? Would compelling someone to call you 'terf' as a pronoun rather than it being used as a way for men to call women 'bitches' and get rewarded virtue signal cookies for doing so change the dynamic? It would show you're not afraid at least, makes a bold statement.

Thanks schmoozer Thats one for a T-shirt

And it's even worse when it's on email signatures
Oh good Lord tell me this isn't true!

It's because if someone is trying to participate in discussions in a language that isn't their native one then they are already at a disadvantage. So insisting on pronouns can make them feel worried about saying the wrong thing. It just sets a tone for the discussion that grammar etc must be perfect.

Also some languages don't use pronouns in the same way.

As I said there are holes in my argument but the woke don't want to really look into anything

It is completely irrelevant at a meeting. You don't use pronouns in that situation. You either use the person's name. (Jane made a very good point about our widget supplier or if you can't remember her name you fudge it The point about our widget supplier was excellent)

There is no reason to use pronouns- if anything to do so is rude (she made a very good point about our widget supplier)

When I analysed it this was exactly my problem, I've spent 30 years fighting for my sex to be irrelevant to my work, to be made to announce it at the beginning of meetings goes against all that

Cordelia Fine’s “the delusion of gender” cites several studies where inducing women to think of themselves through the prism of gender before tests/interviews etc affects performance, usually inhibiting strong performance and skewing it towards what’s expected from traditional gender stereotypes.

Also through the prism of sex - not just gender.

Power Could be a good idea. Except I'd say the word was an acronym for Truth Exposing Rad Fem!

EweSurname Yes! This is a really important point, sums up perfectly why having to publicly declare your 'gender identity' is so damaging for women in particular. This needs to be referred to when making the case against everyone declaring pronouns. It should be optional for those who need it, that's all.

I see other posters had commented on the rudeness of using a pronoun when the person is present.

Have pronoun enforcers never heard who is she? The cat's mother?

As for email sign offs- what is the point? If you reply only to that person you use their name; if you reply to all but comment on what the person said you still use their name.

EweSurname I also saw a similar study which did the same for race, comparing black students who ticked a box to declare their race before starting a maths test with those who didn't. Due to negative societal expectations, those who had to tick the box did worse.