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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Civil Service Trans policy - what can I do?

360 replies

DoxxMeTwice · 28/02/2019 14:44

Following an awful "workplace inclusion" meeting today I was prompted to check out my work policy for Trans (link below).

I work for the Civil Service ( name changed, as I was previously doxed and can't risk it here).

Page 31 is particularly bad, I feel like it implies that any woman who objects to sharing single sex facilities will be disciplined for being discriminatory.

This policy is clearly being put into practice as during my meeting today it was discussed that a Trans Woman was left hurt and embarrassed recently after a woman did an immediate u-turn out of the toilets when she saw them. It was stated as a gentle warning to others to consider trans feelings.

The woman's feelings were not considered at all, though I expect she has probably since been vilified in her local office!

Does anyone have any real life examples of policies like this being successfully challenged by using EHRC/Equalities act??

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachmentdata/file/503663/WorkplaceeGuideCSEPPrevisedFinallV1.pdf

OP posts:
NothingOnTellyAgain · 28/02/2019 19:48

So for all of the decades we were locked out of decision making. management. board . and still are to a large extent. everyday sexism. make the tea. wear the heels. dumb it down so no-one think syou're a bitch. pregnant? off you fuck my dear

that is something to get fucked off with

someone choosing not to use the same toilet?
Is being treated the same / more seriously as men refusing to be in the room with women (effectively) when it comes to opportunity, decisions, all that?

yeah fuck that

also this

"So you MUST pee or change your sanity wear in the female toilets, if a male is present? You are not permitted to change your mind or feel uncomfortable about it because the male bodied person’s feelings come first! "

We are taught from a very young age to not "make a fuss".
I have "not made a fuss" when I was a girl, when I was scared.
I teach my children to follow their instincts.
this OVER-RIDES that
It explicitly tells women and girls NOT to follow their instincts for fear of upsetting a dicky person
Hyperspeed reverse

Women and girls must comply. They must stay in situations they are uncomfortbale in.
Meanwhile obscene pay gap continues unabated.

R0wantrees · 28/02/2019 19:48

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD
I thought it was a different police officer.

I know there have been a few who have had profiles with regards trans rights. THis case with schools demonstrates how effective trans lobbying can be in changing public service policies:

'Who Is Making Policy For Schools?'
Transgender TrendMarch 31, 2018
(extract)
"The image above shows a presentation from a local Southend trans support group called Transpire, founded by a 54 year-old transsexual male called Gina Denham who teaches children that we all have a ‘gender identity’ which exists in the womb and is independent of both our socialisation and our biological sex. It is this ‘gender identity’ which makes us a boy or a girl and actually being male or female is irrelevant.

Transpire recently forced a school to change its policies in service of this ideology. Under the guise of ‘inclusion’ and ‘integration’ Gina Denham led an aggressive campaign to force a school in Rochford to remove sex-based rights and protections for its female students.

The trans pupil in question has been known by the Transpire group for two years so has presumably been thoroughly conditioned into the belief that he is literally female. As with Lily Madigan at his school in Kent, this one pupil has been afforded the power to change policy affecting all other pupils at the school with the help of a powerful transgender lobby. (continues)

The whole campaign, from start to finish, took 6 days. No time to conduct a proper impact assessment on pupils protected under the protected characteristic ‘sex’ as the school is legally obliged to do before changing policy. How is this not in breach of Equality law? The pupil involved is legally male, not female, and single-sex provisions are lawful under the Equality Act, for reasons of privacy. The example of school facilities used in the Equality and Human Rights Commission Technical Guidance (3.20) does not state that a pupil protected under ‘gender reassignment’ as transsexual should be allowed to use the facilities of the opposite sex:

The way in which school facilities are provided can lead to discrimination. Example: A school fails to provide appropriate changing facilities for a transsexual pupil and insists that the pupil uses the boys’ changing room even though she is now living as a girl. This could be indirect gender reassignment discrimination unless it can be objectively justified. A suitable alternative might be to allow the pupil to use private changing facilities, such as the staff changing room or another suitable space.

King Edmund School is praised for showing “flexibility and openness to change” whereas in fact they were coerced by a campaign designed to intimidate and shame them for their ‘abusive’ policy of ‘discrimination’ and ‘segregation’, clearly risking damage to the school’s reputation. One tweeter even likened it to ‘apartheid.’

Although the final tweet proclaims ‘Everyone wins!’ Denham freely admits in this BBC report that the victory is only for the transgender student and everyone else’s needs and rights are unimportant:

“It’s about giving people the opportunity to use the toilet they are comfortable with, not what the school is comfortable with.”

So who is Gina Denham and what gives this individual so much power that a school changes its whole policy to cater to the demands of just one pupil?" (continues)
www.transgendertrend.com/who-is-making-policy-for-schools/

NothingOnTellyAgain · 28/02/2019 19:49

"I've heard 'women with trans experience' and 'women with trans history' but cis women? "

YY some transwomen ID as cis.

There is to be no descriptor for cunty people as a group, to have one is exclusionary, and that's that.

NeurotrashWarrior · 28/02/2019 19:52

Stating that they're cis gender both negates the need for cis and nods towards the cotton ceiling.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 28/02/2019 19:52

I was pleased (maybe not the right word as it was a horrible thing for the child) to read about the little girl in Falkirk (?) who did Make A Fuss when a male person (who says they are female, bla bla bla) tried to sexually assault her in the ladies loo.

The little girl knew - she kicked ‘her’ in the goolies and screamed blue murder. Give that girl a medal.

Sadly said attacker (who was also convicted of filming in the ladies loos) was housed in a women’s hostel.

Illyria47 · 28/02/2019 19:54

I think it would be pretty much instinctive for any woman to turn around and walk out of a toilet if she saw an obvious looking man in there. I know I would.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 28/02/2019 19:54

The whole point about this is that it's coneceptual and divorced from material reality.

You can ID however you like.

Exising power structures remain ,based on material reality.

In general you cannot ID out of oppression.

Class anaylsis is like so last season though

viques · 28/02/2019 19:56

humiliating and undermining to be expected to use the accessible toilet.

So it's fine for disabled people to be humiliated and undermined by being expected to use accessible facilities, and for natural born women to be humiliated and undermined by having to share their facilities with men, but some people are to be protected at all costs from the minor inconvenience of being asked to use private and discreet accessible toilets.

Riiiiiiiight, got it now.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 28/02/2019 19:59

And the fact that you may only find a man in the ladies one time out of a hundred - but the risk of this would put you off going into public loos anyway.

Ereshkigal · 28/02/2019 20:00

It's crystal clear to anyone who cares about the rights of women and girls when you see things like this. Unfortunately it seems some people can't see it.

Trousering · 28/02/2019 20:08

civilservice.blog.gov.uk/2014/12/17/whistleblowers/

If you feel intimidated and contractually gagged I recommend you use the whistle blowing policy as this is the purpose.

It provides protection.

GollyGoshGreat · 28/02/2019 20:09

OP all unions are woke. Last year’s TUC motion 41 and the debate around it shows the majority of attendees consider that GC women are witches to be burned at the stake.

I for one was fuming with my union and complained. It fell on deaf ears.

Ereshkigal · 28/02/2019 20:10

Thank you for this valuable advice, Trousering.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 28/02/2019 20:13

Yes uniony types are a bit right on - until you explain why their little girl may well have to change for dance class with a little boy - or share a tent with a boy at girl guides and they wouldn’t know beforehand. That usually shakes them out if their rose tinted glasses.

Iamanaubergine · 28/02/2019 20:27

Not sure if this is the right thread to put this on but I came across this gem from the Uk National Statistics service today that was written in 2009. Talks about the trans umbrella and self id [[http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/guide-method/measuring-equality/equality/equality-data-review/trans-data-position-paper.pdf ]]

NothingOnTellyAgain · 28/02/2019 20:32

My DH is in an old school heavily unionised sector

I always looked at the famous union men - and they were always men - and thought yes you stand for all sort of people, black white disabled gay etc
Men

I never felt they were interested in women at all

You see this in the labour party

It's all for men and always has been.

R0wantrees · 28/02/2019 20:32

I was pleased (maybe not the right word as it was a horrible thing for the child) to read about the little girl in Falkirk (?) who did Make A Fuss when a male person (who says they are female, bla bla bla) tried to sexually assault her in the ladies loo.

The little girl knew - she kicked ‘her’ in the goolies and screamed blue murder. Give that girl a medal.

The girl recognised her attacker as being a male.
She decribed her attacker as being a 'man with long hair'

"Miss Lumsden said: “The complainer’s dad then heard his daughter screaming and came running out of the bathroom, looking as if she was running away from someone.

“She explained that a crazy man with long hair was in the bathroom and had grabbed her face and pushed her into a cubicle, before demanding she take her trousers off.

“She said the person had said they would stab her mum. She was upset and inconsolable.”

Another young girl was assaulted by the same male person in other women's supermarket toilets."
www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/fife/702003/fife-teen-on-sex-offenders-register-after-supermarket-child-attacks/

The crimes were male-pattern.
The offender was 17 at the time of the assaults and is now 18 so cannot have a GRC

The girls were both under 12 years old.

As well as being placed in a woman's hostel, media reports use the offenders' preferred pronouns 'she/her'

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3496984-Article-in-Dundee-Courier-about-assault-of-10-year-old-girl-in-supermarket-toilets

threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3496984-Article-in-Dundee-Courier-about-assault-of-10-year-old-girl-in-supermarket-toilets

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3518831-Sex-offender-placed-in-women-s-hostel

August 2018 original report discussed.
It was clear to many here that the offender was male and likely identified as trans/non-binary. Posters were accused of being bigoted, unfair etc etc
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3329936-teen-films-girl-in-toilet

Its about Safeguarding.

Trousering · 28/02/2019 20:38

I think you're wasting your time with unions, because they won't challenge this. Internal employee consultations are going to place you in conflict as the very act of objecting is already framed as unacceptable by the policy which is being considered. This is what you're blowing the whistle on.

Every thing on this thread is useful to include, plus the descrimination on the grounds of beliefs that the policy is enforcing.

I think as many civil servants as possible should blow the whistle on this back door discrimination. They are not joining the dots.

Trousering · 28/02/2019 20:44

I would also tell journalists that you are whistleblowing anonymously or via a thread here. Explain in your whistleblowing report that you will be sharing both your report and their management of it.

If that worries you too much we could engage with fair play for women, happy to contribute to crowd fund for legal support on this if needed.

IDoN0tCare · 28/02/2019 20:45

Unions are run by misogynistic shit heads and I’m saying that having been a union rep for years. Smash the glass ceiling in the union, not with those fuckers dragging you of the ladder.

OlennasWimple · 28/02/2019 20:52

This document reads like it is two years out of date - which it is. I expect any request regarding its status will be something along the lines of needing to wait for the outcome of the GRA consultation, at which point it will be reviewed

I know that's no help to anyone in the meantime

JackyHolyoake · 28/02/2019 20:55

"it was discussed that a Trans Woman was left hurt and embarrassed recently after a woman did an immediate u-turn out of the toilets when she saw them."

Autogynephilia .. right there. The use of women's toilets is validating for these AGPs .. they are sexually aroused by it. This policy is, probably unknowingly since they appear to be unaware of autogynephilia and all its implications for women, sexual harassment.

DoctoressPlague · 28/02/2019 20:57

Mcl1 and anyone else wondering what the fuss is about, have a read:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3518546-help-a-brother-out

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 28/02/2019 20:58

And the woman who turned heels was probably also embarrassed and possibly scared and confused. Only one of them had a right to be in there - it guess who be backed and who will be attacked?

ChattyLion · 28/02/2019 21:02

Also the Equalities and Human Rights Commission should be asked by media covering this to comment. It’s their job to give guidance on the Equalities Act so they should be asked if they think this guidance is in line with the Act- particularly how it affects women who believe TWANW and also women of other beliefs who require single sex toileting accommodation at work.

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