Infant Feeding - Massive Straw Men with Ambivalence & Gaslights

[Ineedacupofteadesperately]

I've felt for a long time that something is 'off' about the discussion in the media around infant feeding. Apart from anything else the fact that the alternative to a mother breastfeeding is automatically accepted to be formula rather than donor milk, and no-one seems to ever question this. Why? Throughout history the alternative was wet nursing, not feeding cows milk. We have successful blood donation - why have all the milk banks been destroyed, we used to have more? Why is no money put into this in a supposedly rich country?

Anyway, someone sent me this link and I found it thought provoking. I think the comparison of adult feeding habits very pertinent at the end, but I do think part of the problem is that there are vested interests very focused on this remaining seen as individual choice rather than individual decisions in a very stacked environment without proper investment to support women, which often means there is no real choice at all.

www.analyticalarmadillo.co.uk/2019/02/infant-feeding-massive-straw-men-with.html

You are free to start a thread about the topic of your choosing?

What do you want to hear about PineapplePower? Lots of posts going on about how marvellous breast feeding is? And what a super duper idea wet nurses are?

"Supporting women" in the context of feeding children seems for some people no more than a synonym for pushing breast feeding no matter what.

@Lass, here is the first thing that comes up after googling babymoon www.gentleparenting.co.uk/kc/the-postpartum-period-babymoons/

Definitely a far cry from the "you aren't the only woman who has given birth" culture in the UK.

I'm not hugely convinced by the sweeping and vague generalities in that link. One of the references is to India-

This is the first result for "women's rights in India"

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/27/india-abuse-women-human-rights-rape-girls

You wouldn't necessarily expect countries with traditions of lying in to be otherwise feminist paradises - and snuggy never said they would be. That's one of the problems that childbearing in general poses for feminists (like myself) - you can either go for the 'women need lots of extra support and to be released from normal duties during pregnancy/early motherhood', which plays within a patriarchal society as 'women are weak and less useful than men', or you can go for 'women aren't at all limited by biology and can chair a board meeting four hours after giving birth', which pleases a patriarchal society but puts an unacceptable burden on individual women. Either way the problem is actually the patriarchal society.

What NewAccount said

Either way the problem is actually the patriarchal society

Personally my problem was the sweeping assumption by hospital midwives and the hidebound ideological attitudes of my health visitor the vile woman from the NCT. Damn all to with "patriarchal society"

You wouldn't necessarily expect countries with traditions of lying in to be otherwise feminist paradises - and snuggy never said they would be

I really hate the pick and mix of picking out one element (supported by that very vague article) and promoting that as a better than the West does.

Having respect for new mums and babies and providing well thought out support is better than a "pregnancy isn't a disease get on with it" attitude.

Having respect for new mums and babies and providing well thought out support is better than a "pregnancy isn't a disease get on with it" attitude

I got precious little respect or support from my health visitor and the specialist NCT advisor. "Breast is best" the NCT woman parroted that like a stuck record.

That's just as wrong.

lass you obviously had a really bad experience and I'm sorry for that. But you seem convinced that your experience is either universal or the only possible perspective - in the nicest possible way, it's not all about you. Policy absolutely should serve women like you - but you seem determined that it should only serve women like you.

Also, I'm sorry that you felt badly served by the NCT but it's a private, entirely optional organisation that no one made you engage with. I didn't.

Policy absolutely should serve women like you - but you seem determined that it should only serve women like you

I have said nothing of the kind. My point is the rigid policy took no account whatsoever of me.

My son was born into a well off, stable household of healthy non-smokers, non drinkers, diligently eating their 5 a day and doing everything the then childcare guru (Penelope Leach) told them to.

Policy didn't even begin to accept that the emotional harm done to a mother who didn't want to bf, had considerable difficulty doing so, could not express any thing like what would would be needed when I returned to work and hated bf was far more harmful to the mother (and the bond with her child) than any slight disadvantage to the very privileged child in being ff.

I said the policy extended to refusing to even give me advice about how to introduce formula. How have you managed to interpret anything of what I said into that I said the policy should only cover women in my position?

There is definitely a need to try and shift perception that BF is the biological norm, that's not to say we should shame anyone who doesn't BF.

There is definitely a need to try and shift perception that BF is the biological norm

Sorry I'm not following you - it is the biological norm- does anyone think it isn't?Policy is geared towards it. Are you suggesting it should not be treated as a biological norm? It is - it just doesn't work for everyone.

that's not to say we should shame anyone who doesn't BF

My husband commented that on the 2 occasions he was present when feeding was raised by health professionals it was done so as the given "you'll be breastfeeding then?" Not say "what are your thoughts on feeding"?

Formula companies have gone out of their way to discourage mothers from seeing it as the default option which is why policy is what it is. Whether health care professionals always go about implementing it in the right way is another matter.

I'm certainly not judging any individual who tried to BF and it didn't work out but the question of why it doesn't work out for so many in the UK compared to other countries needs to be looked at. We aren't biologically different.

What policy are referring to? Formula advertising is not even permitted in the UK for new borns. So far as the NHS bf is absolutely promoted as the norm (certainly when I gave birth)

It may not be now but the effect of advertising and campaigning for all the years they did, the influence on the public and medical professionals combined with a loss of cultural knowledge of how to breastfeed isn't something that will be reversed easily.

Out of interest how long ago did you have your baby, lass? I was given information on switching to combination feeding happily and readily by my health visitor a few months ago.

I said the policy extended to refusing to even give me advice about how to introduce formula. How have you managed to interpret anything of what I said into that I said the policy should only cover women in my position?

You seem very passionately against any policy that encourages women to breastfeed, or indeed which doesn't just give them 'permission' to formula feed as default. I think that's probably a result of your own bad treatment, but it's very noticeable in this thread.

I'm a bit uncomfortable with presenting the NCT as something entirely optional when for some women, they don't have access to any NHS antenatal classes. Where I live, there were none when I had my first child. This is becoming more common due to cuts. If I wanted an antenatal class, which I think is actually quite a reasonable and sensible desire, there was no choice but the NCT. So that does limit women's options. And the women who didn't have £180 had to just lump it.

Antenatal classes what do they actually tell you that you can't get online?
Information is so much easier to access online than it was even 15 years ago.

You can't put all the blame of ffing at the door of the formula companies. There were times that the government also encouraged FFing so women could go back to work.

I can't imagine trying to go back to work leaving a 6 week old infant as that was the amount of mat leave offered.

Having no experience of antenatal classes, I wasn't in a position to assess whether they'd give me information I couldn't get elsewhere. But my mother had found hers very useful and was aghast that I wasn't going to be provided with any, and I was aware that in other areas they were available. So they seemed worthwhile. Actually a lot of it was very good, but the point is that antenatal classes are a pretty normal and mainstream thing to want, but aren't always available from other sources.

The trouble with looking for info online is you don't always know what it is you need to know if that makes sense? I found mine very helpful for preparation for birth, not so much for the looking after babies part, but that doesn't matter so much as it starts off simple (feed one end, change the other) and then you can google things. You can't very well google in the middle of labour to find out how to deal with unbearable contractions.

You seem very passionately against any policy that encourages women to breastfeed, or indeed which doesn't just give them 'permission' to formula feed as default. I think that's probably a result of your own bad treatment, but it's very noticeable in this thread

You are making things up and I am finding your posts patronising and offensive. I have said nothing of the kind. I have talked about my own miserable experience and the lack of support I was given. I'm really quite astonished you can twist what I said to come to that conclusion.

My son was born in 1990.

I was ill and missed mine (wasn't offered with DC2) so the extent of the advice i had was friend who said 'relax and let your body do it's job' and MW who said 'don't go to hospital too early'

What do you want to hear about PineapplePower? Lots of posts going on about how marvellous breast feeding is? And what a super duper idea wet nurses are?

Ridiculous. If you read my previous post, you’d know that I don’t think donor milk is feasible beyond altruistic donations for preemies and that if it was a real business, it might create perverse economic incentives among lower class women (they’d donate their milk for profit; their own children would be raised on formula)

It’s an interesting discussion though and was actually different than the typical thread on this topic, which usually devolves in the same way.

Your assumptions are crap. I wanted novel, interesting discussions, but here you are stereotyping my views, and making blind assumption on things you don’t know about.

I do agree that the NCT classes aren't right for everyone but can be all that's on offer. I was just lucky I fit the typical NCT demographic I guess. I think I'd have felt awkward if I'd been the only young or single mum in the class for example.