Infant Feeding - Massive Straw Men with Ambivalence & Gaslights

[Ineedacupofteadesperately]

I've felt for a long time that something is 'off' about the discussion in the media around infant feeding. Apart from anything else the fact that the alternative to a mother breastfeeding is automatically accepted to be formula rather than donor milk, and no-one seems to ever question this. Why? Throughout history the alternative was wet nursing, not feeding cows milk. We have successful blood donation - why have all the milk banks been destroyed, we used to have more? Why is no money put into this in a supposedly rich country?

Anyway, someone sent me this link and I found it thought provoking. I think the comparison of adult feeding habits very pertinent at the end, but I do think part of the problem is that there are vested interests very focused on this remaining seen as individual choice rather than individual decisions in a very stacked environment without proper investment to support women, which often means there is no real choice at all.

www.analyticalarmadillo.co.uk/2019/02/infant-feeding-massive-straw-men-with.html

Additionally, the motivation for the NHS to keep pushing breastfeeding is because there are a couple of advantages on a population level, and even the best controlled research shows this. That is, fewer colds and gastro problems in babies and a reduction in breast cancer in women. Which, unlike the reduction in ovarian cancer which is also accessible through taking the combined pill, doesnt appear to be replicable.

So it's financially worth the NHS producing less evidence based information because even if women eg breastfeed because they think it'll make them bond better, if you can bullshit enough of them you'll still get a population level decrease in admissions for gastro problems.

I, however, dont regard that as a particularly feminist outcome if the women would've otherwise made a different decision.

I guess if the benefits of breastfeeding are on a population level it's not unreasonable to expect society as a whole to be more supportive of breastfeeding mothers. The discrimination laws are a good start but we have a long way to go to create a breastfeeding friendly society.

Society as a whole should be more supportive of breastfeeding mothers as a matter of principle, anyway. If formula were to advance to such a level that there were no benefits even on a population level, I'd still want women to be able to breastfeed anywhere they and the baby are legally allowed to be.

I thought the idea of preventing women from breastfeeding being a form of abuse was very interesting. I had never thought of it that way before, but I do have two very close friends whose partners effectively sabotaged their breastfeeding for different reasons.

One friend has a very controlling husband- his own friends on the whole have partners who are much younger, less well educated and easier to control. None of them have breastfed. So when my friend was pregnant she was very clear that she wanted to breastfeed, but after the birth her husband put enormous pressure on her to mix feed. The breastfeeds got fewer and the bottle feeds happened more often (given by her husband and his family) until she found herself exclusively formula feeding. This was absolutely not what she had wanted at the start. Incidentally, her husband has still never done a night feed despite giving this as one of the advantages to mixed feeding.

My other friend had a very traumatic birth and couldn't get breastfeeding started initially. Her partner was very quick to take over formula feeding. He prepares and gives most feeds. He is desperate to be involved in the whole feeding process. She meanwhile is devastated that breastfeeding didn't work out and is rather depressed. Her husband is lovely, but is so desperate to be involved in feeding that he made no attempt to support breastfeeding. I had suggested a lactation consultant, knowing that my friend wanted to breastfeed, but he was keen to point to all the adults he knew that had been formula fed and turned out fine.

Never thought about it as abuse from a partner point of view, my own DH was quite supportive. But I can certainly see how it could be used that way.
I was given lots of pressure to switch from both grans. One from the formula babies are more settled point of view. The other from the we could help point. I strongly suspect it was more their selfishness wanting to give a bottle rather than concern for me.

We were living with the latter of the two grans, when my eldest was 3 mths to 7 mths. So I'd at least managed to get BFing established. But constant pressure to introduce a bottle was tough going. I had visions that if I introduced a bottle it would be a fighting over fed my baby. Which actually made me more determined to keep going. I've never felt like such a rebel.

It's a very subtle kind of coercion. Even the thoughtless, "he can't be hungry again, you mustn't have enough milk," is going to undermine someone who isn't yet confident about breastfeeding.

Controlling the way a woman is allowed to use her body can absolutely be abusive.

you can't have a productive discussion without giving voice to the millions of women who simply don't want to breastfeed or can't, or have adopted/foster children, and admitting there is no good reason to insist on donor milk and the many reasons why women don't want to do it and shouldn't feel required

There are many, many interesting aspects to this topic, and posters like you derail it with the same old shite. Don’t want to or can’t breastfeed? Great, but it’s not relevant to every and all discussions about BF. You are shutting down a conversation, essentially.

Interesting point about abuse. I’ve seen something similar in an extended family dynamic where the mothers attempt to breastfeed was seen as ‘selfish’ as it prevented the MIL from taking the baby for any period of time. MIL and extended family have taken it as a personal affront and saight to undermine BF.
I’ve seen that play out more than once and it always leads to great resentment

That strange trend of extended family wanting to take babies for overnight stays and general sense of entitlement of family members have isn't helpful.

Is the wanting sleepovers a new thing or has it always been the case?

I do know of some women who have has a big supply and donated to neonatal unit. I guess this is different than a more widespread donation/ marketing(?) of donor milk for babies.
Not sure how I feel.

No idea to be fair, it's something I've only read about on here though. My late paternal DGM was a difficult MIL and even she didn't expect regular overnights with her baby grandchildren.

What I find sad as that these sorts of nearby families could be offering practical support for a cluster feeding mother with cooking, housework or childcare instead.

There are many, many interesting aspects to this topic, and posters like you derail it with the same old shite. Don’t want to or can’t breastfeed? Great, but it’s not relevant to every and all discussions about BF. You are shutting down a conversation, essentially

Well as for "same old shite" I'm seeing the usual mantra about how if only mothers were given support to breast feed it would all be fine on here. Goodness know what form of "support" that would have taken for me If any one is shutting down a conversation it is you.

What I find sad as that these sorts of nearby families could be offering practical support for a cluster feeding mother with cooking, housework or childcare instead

That x100.
Even when we were moving house. The offer was "I'll take baby and let you get on with packing" no thanks but you can come and help pack.

Seriously a baby under 3mths is not going to get in the way.

If any one is shutting down a conversation it is you

You are free to start a thread about the topic of your choosing?

Someone upthread said that many women said they didn’t feel supported to continue, but actually just didn’t want to continue. That was actually an interesting thought and perhaps deserving of its own thread.

I think they are simply different conversations. The statistics do suggest a significant proportion of women who wanted to breastfeed but couldn't.

They do, but I think it's worth critically examining whether women who actually have a different reason feel able to give it. There is quite a well established trend of people often giving the 'right' answer in some research, after all. So much of the discourse does start from the well meaning but not necessarily accurate assumption that what all women want is to breastfeed, and the solution is facilitation of more breastfeeding.

I'd have thought 'support' that involves pressuring women who dont want to breastfeed/continue with it could come under the umbrella of poor feeding support generally? So many women do want and need assistance, so it's poor resource allocation.

I think both groups (FFeeders who wanted to BF and FFeeders who didn't) are worth a conversation but there is a time and a place for both and I don't know if lumping the two categories together is all that helpful.

Of the women who give up BFing I'd be really curious to find out what made them give up.

Lack of physical support, ie couldn't manage house and BFing.

Pressure from other people. FFing easier we could help.

Tired of cluster feeding

Feeding going ok but other reason to stop, Own free will.

Incidentally i also recall coming across the theory that cluster feeding forces new mum to rest / recover from the birth.

I found it interesting reading about other cultures where mum and baby are sent to bed for 40 days after birth and other people cook and take over housework.

Our culture of showing off how little having a baby has impacted you is completely different.

See, I'm not sure there's necessarily the bright line between the two groups that's being drawn here. Or rather, I think we'd need more information in order to draw it.

Of the women who give up BFing I'd be really curious to find out what made them give up.

Lack of physical support, ie couldn't manage house and BFing That wasn't an issue. Husband and cleaner dealt with house.

Pressure from other people. FFing easier we could help no - but the pressure from health visitor and the idiot "feeding counsellor" from the NCT to carry on with bf no matter what and the refusal of either of them to even discuss ff was certainly pressure.

Tired of cluster feeding. I couldn't leave the house- getting on for 3 months. Idiot NCT woman suggested pumping. All that happened was that I spent the time not feeding was spent pumping to produce a tiny dribble of milk.

On top of that It made me feel physically sick. I hated it. The nausea is something they never tell you about. It is supposed to last only a few weeks but some cases are longer.

I hated bf. I was pressurised into it from the start and that pressure continued unrelenting. I was reduced to being a milch cow, not a human being. It didn't create a bond and if anything I was starting to resent my son.

Health visitor knew all of this and that I was going back to work full time fairly soon yet a query about how I would introduce ff was met with the same idiotic advice about pumping and a refusal to give any advice on ff.

I found it interesting reading about other cultures where mum and baby are sent to bed for 40 days after birth and other people cook and take over housework

Which cultures?

What groups? Sorry I'm getting lost. If I was allocating the BF budget I'd scrap anything which amounts to persuasion and plough it all into practical support. If someone doesn't want to breastfeed I don't see the sense in trying to

Yes on a population level it makes sense to try and raise breastfeeding levels but when it comes down to the individual we are in a high income country meaning there is very little difference in health outcomes and other factors (convenience, sharing feeds, medication, routine, simple preference) may well be weighed higher in an individual's choice meaning formula is the better option for them - in fact that's exactly why HIV positive mothers in high income countries are advised to formula feed, but in low income countries the advice is to breastfeed and be extremely careful not to give any non breastmilk substance before exactly 6 months.

Also, if you want to raise something, it makes sense to look at why things are as they are, and there is a very clear picture, most people want to breastfeed, start off, but stop. If you've ever done any kind of breastfeeding support you know that the same things come up time and time again and that women are being failed by the front line professionals they turn to for support.

I don't think good support is going to make every woman love breastfeeding, and if someone finds that they are happier with formula/bottles then great - glad they have something which works for them. What I hate seeing is women who desperately want to breastfeed and who don't have any significant issues being sabotaged by poor advice or misleading info and then becoming distressed because they think the problem is them! That's crap and not something which should be marring the newborn period for anyone.