Stonewall champion School (primary)

[Amoregentlemanlikemanner]

I have realised that our local primary is a Stonewall Champion School after seeing the school letterhead..
I would be very grateful for any information (beyond what is on the website) about the content of their training course so I can decide whether to raise this.

I have few concerns about the teachers who are a wise quiet bunch. I am concerned that parents of a dysphoric child may become estranged from the school. I also note with concern references to the Equalities Act.

isitme,

it's tricky isn't it when you know how busy teachers are plus you respect their hard-earned wisdom.

I think it's drawing to their attention the fact that there is a debate at all that's the thing...

HandsOffMyRights

If you can share I’d like to write to my MP about this.

She’s useless though.

I'm another who would appreciate a share, Hands.

Am I missing something or is is plain wrong to say the right of a young trans person to use loos or changing rooms that correspond with their gender identity is supported under the Equality Act? Sex is a protected characteristic. Gender identity is not, though gender reassignent is. I’m assuming that school kids won’t have had the surgery?

It's a deliberate misrepresentation of the law.

I'm waiting a call from our infant school. I approached one of the SLT after reading in a school newsletter that they would be discussing gender in class. They assured me that it was just a discussion about girls and boys being able to do the same things/have long or short hair/wear the same clothes. I said that I'd be rather "put out" if I discovered that they'd been told any nonsense about being able to change sex. At which point, they said they would phone me with more information.

Someone (Lisa Muggeridge?) talked about challenging the school to identify any conflicts between the training and existing safeguarding procedures.

I don't know whether it is part of Stonewall's training, but that would include things like promising to keep conversations with the child confidential, or doing things within the school but not disclosing them to the parent like some other organisations advocate.

Yes, it's a deliberate misrepresentation of the EqA.

A girls right to privacy is not superseded by the right to privacy of a child who identifies as trans.

The documentation accompanying the EqA spells this exact scenario out, and it's the exact opposite position to that claimed by LGBT orgs.

A girl's right to privacy:

Is based on the protected characteristic of sex.

She is entitled to single-sex spaces and therefore to a changing room free from males, however they identify.

A trans-identifying child's right to privacy:

Is based on the protected characteristics of sex and gender reassignment.

Sex: such a child must not be excluded from changing with the other children of its sex, unless they want to be. These are all children sharing the same legal sex and therefore have a right to be in the space that corresponds with their sex.

Gender reassignment:

(You lay claim to this protected characteristic merely by identifying as trans, no actual transition needed. Could have a discussion about non-binary and non-dysphoric (but nonetheless considered trans) persons not being covered by this as the EqA specifically refers to transsexual persons. But let's assume they all are entitled to this protected characteristic.)

So while trans-identifying children cannot be excluded from their own spaces (because that would treat two children sharing the same sex differently, in breach of their rights under the EqA), their right to privacy under the protected characteristic of gender reassignment means they cannot be forced to change with children whose sex they share.

There is no declaration* in the accompanying explanations to the EqA that trans-identifying children must not be excluded from the single-sex spaces of opposite-sex children.

On the contrary, because we have the existing right of girls and boys to privacy via single-sex spaces (which are not of course superseded by the right to privacy of trans-identifying children), the EqA explanations actually illustrate this exact scenario and state that the latter group's right to privacy means they are to be offered alternate arrangements, such as a staff waiting room.

The rights of both groups of children to privacy are thus balanced and do not infringe on each other at all. That's the law.

Unlike what is presented in all the trans guidelines...

A junior school near me is a Stonewall champion, they have a policy that goes along the lines of

We respect everyone's sex, however they identify.
We respect everyone's gender, however they identify.

Talking to one member of staff they had 'a boy who was a girl, but went back to being a boy', but they couldn't answer me when I asked how the child had changed sex. Couldn't see the problem with him using the girls loo etc.

Another member of staff from the same school was telling me that her friends son might be a girl as he wasn't like his brothers!

Olly Lambert's twitter response to Graham Linehan's request 'I'd like to collect some anecdotes about when and why you first became involved in the debate about gender ideology/activism'

(OL was the Director of 'Trans Kids, Its Time to Talk' documentary)

"It was probably the moment I realised that not a single charity, journalist, support group or doctor who supported the affirmation of trans kids would take part in a documentary that wanted to ask valid questions about the treatment of …trans kids. THREAD 1/13

At the start of this, I’d undoubtedly have called myself an ally, and still do in a different way. Live and let live, give people the lives and freedoms they want, let kids live their true lives. /2

The film “Trans Kids: It’s Time to Talk” sought to ask if if the medication and affirmation of trans kids was always the right path. I’d expected passionate and articulate charities & campaign groups would want to take part and speak about how this process helps. /3

And yet in almost 20 years of making films, I’d never encountered such a systematic refusal to debate something so patently important. Every single "pro trans kids" group refused to speak, and I had to ask why. /4

Stonewall refused, saying that as the film included “gender critical” voices it would be ‘denying the existence of trans people’. This was laughable. Interviews with trans people make up nearly half the film. /5

Britain’s only private “gender GP” Helen Webberley said she’d take part on condition that Stephanie Davies-Arai and @David @DavidTCDavies were not included. Amazed, we asked if there were others she didn’t want us to talk to. She said she’d need to check the “little list” /6

Maria Miller MP didn’t have even ten minutes free in the following 3 months (!) to be interviewed about the Women’s & Equalities Select Committee (which she chairs), adding that she was no longer involved in the trans debate. (But… /7

...On the day Maria Miller wrote this to me, Stonewall sent an invitation to MPs inviting them to a “panel event on trans equality, held in partnership with Maria Miller MP…”) /8

Paris Lees pulled out of two meetings, both times on the day they were supposed to happen, before saying she didn’t have time to take part. /9

Mermaids had various reasons, falsely stating that the author & psychotherapist presenter @stellaomalley3 was “unqualified” and “confused”. They also wouldn’t take part because “the film will be one sided” (their refusal to take part only serving to make that more likely). /10

Lily Madigan refused because there was “nothing to debate”. /11

Jake Graf wouldn’t even speak on the phone. Owen Jones ignored all emails and requests via an intermediary. Jane Fae said no. Gendered Intelligence never replied to emails. And on and on. /12

The only organisation who I felt gave a valid reason was the Tavistock. After a long meeting with Polly Carmichael (who was thoughtful, nuanced and recognised the complexity) they ultimately declined saying they feared their words would be “weaponised” by all sides. /13

So my question remains: if a treatment is so right, if your position is so unarguably good, why not talk about it? Feeling that you’re so correct you can’t be disagreed with is a really, really bad look. /14

Anyway. We made the film. You can see it here:
vimeo.com/304866757 "

threader.app/thread/1100693458048770048

current thread collating responses to the same question from Mumsnet members:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3518546-help-a-brother-out

discussion about the documentary OL directed:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3430608-Stella-OMalley-Trans-Kids-Its-Time-To-Talk

Its not just a 'bad look' is a failure of Duty of Care and has massive implications for Safeguarding, Chilld Protection and Charity governance

important threads re issues with Stonewall:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3514190-Ruth-Hunt-is-leaving-Stonewall

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3488261-The-Financial-Juggernaut-that-is-Stonewall

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3323180-Spectator-article-the-limits-of-stonewall-s-tolerance

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3143904-Why-dont-Stonewall-do-proper-meaningful-research

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3355712-Aimee-Challenor-Stonewall

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3384407-Times-letter-petition-STONEWALL-CRITICISED-undermining-women-s-sex-based-rights-and-protections-Jonny-Best-et-al

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3384455-Ruth-Hunt-Stonewall-do-not-and-will-not-acknowledge-that-there-is-a-conflict-between-trans-rights-and-sex-based-women-s-rights

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3383249-stonewall-encouraging-primary-aged-children-to-fill-in-the-gra-consultation

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/3462846-The-National-Lottery-Stonewall-and-Gay-Conversion-Therapy

current thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3201495-List-of-Schools-in-Stonewalls-school-champions

My child is in Year 2, we had a letter about the whole school talking about gender, after the fact I had my conversation with the school today. They said that they had checked their policies and that the recent conversations in school had been about differences and similarities between girls and boys: that both boys and girls can have long or short hair: that both boys and girls can play football (this is apparently a hot topic of playground etiquette!) or cook, play with dolls and Lego. All perfectly harmless . They then went in to say that the were a number of.unconventional families at the school, and if questions ever arose the children would be told that all families are different etc, in an age-appropriate way. And that the school would not talk about "the other issues you raised" (I had said I didn't want my child exposed to any of that nonsense about changing sex). They then asked if I'd seen the news coverage about SRE. I said I was aware of it, but hadn't seen any recent news, they then said that any changes to what was taught would be implemented after a long period of training, and that I had the right to remove my children from these lessons. I said that I was under the impression that we wouldn't have that privilege for much longer. I also said that I imagined that as educated people, teachers would surely have at least reservations about telling the lie that it is possible to change sex. Silence, then a forced laugh about needing to take it up at the junior school once my child gets there.

Apology for the long text, there were line breaks on my phone!

*R0wantrees" it says page not found when I try to access the stonewall school list.

there's a discussion about the broken link on the thread.

@CharlieParley

Can you please link to where you found those details regarding rights of girls etc?

That's a really important piece of text.

Can I just clarify; it says that the sexes are allowed their own spaces; a trans identifying child should be offered a separate area.

As said several times in this thread, this is not what a lot of guidance published by various groups say.

I'm confused about the actual sex of the 5 year old, let alone the child themselves.

https://uploads-ssl.webflow.com/5888a640d61795123f8192db/5bb6216a5253bf4eea4ebeb9TranssInclusionSchoolssToolkitVersionn_3.2_2018.pdf

The children are considered transgender and so the document will be referring to them with their preferred pronouns as Allsorts supports affirmation of transgender idendity in children of all ages.

The sex of the child will be the opposite one to the one they identify as so a child referred to as she will be male sex and a child referred to as he will be female sex.

NeurotrashWarrior

This article by TRansgender TRend which detailed how a school were pressurised to change their (correct) provision of a gender neutral toilet/changing space for a pupil who identified as transgender into allowing the pupil to access the single sex spaces (loos and changing rooms) intended for the pupils of the opposite sex.

The main group lobbying were an adult trans support group led by a police officer Gina . It was a stark demonstration of how social media could be utlised by TRAs to change school policy.

'Who Is Making Policy For Schools?'
(extract)
The image above shows a presentation from a local Southend trans support group called Transpire, founded by a 54 year-old transsexual male called Gina Denham who teaches children that we all have a ‘gender identity’ which exists in the womb and is independent of both our socialisation and our biological sex. It is this ‘gender identity’ which makes us a boy or a girl and actually being male or female is irrelevant.

Transpire recently forced a school to change its policies in service of this ideology. Under the guise of ‘inclusion’ and ‘integration’ Gina Denham led an aggressive campaign to force a school in Rochford to remove sex-based rights and protections for its female students.

The trans pupil in question has been known by the Transpire group for two years so has presumably been thoroughly conditioned into the belief that he is literally female. As with Lily Madigan at his school in Kent, this one pupil has been afforded the power to change policy affecting all other pupils at the school with the help of a powerful transgender lobby. (continues)

The whole campaign, from start to finish, took 6 days. No time to conduct a proper impact assessment on pupils protected under the protected characteristic ‘sex’ as the school is legally obliged to do before changing policy. How is this not in breach of Equality law? The pupil involved is legally male, not female, and single-sex provisions are lawful under the Equality Act, for reasons of privacy. The example of school facilities used in the Equality and Human Rights Commission Technical Guidance (3.20) does not state that a pupil protected under ‘gender reassignment’ as transsexual should be allowed to use the facilities of the opposite sex:

The way in which school facilities are provided can lead to discrimination. Example: A school fails to provide appropriate changing facilities for a transsexual pupil and insists that the pupil uses the boys’ changing room even though she is now living as a girl. This could be indirect gender reassignment discrimination unless it can be objectively justified. A suitable alternative might be to allow the pupil to use private changing facilities, such as the staff changing room or another suitable space.

King Edmund School is praised for showing “flexibility and openness to change” whereas in fact they were coerced by a campaign designed to intimidate and shame them for their ‘abusive’ policy of ‘discrimination’ and ‘segregation’, clearly risking damage to the school’s reputation. One tweeter even likened it to ‘apartheid.’

Although the final tweet proclaims ‘Everyone wins!’ Denham freely admits in this BBC report that the victory is only for the transgender student and everyone else’s needs and rights are unimportant:

“It’s about giving people the opportunity to use the toilet they are comfortable with, not what the school is comfortable with.”

www.transgendertrend.com/who-is-making-policy-for-schools/

I guessed that the child was female but had to read it twice - at first the 'script' of "I'm a girl but have short hair I use the girls toilets" seemed sensible, but then switched to the boys.

I hadn't seen that link before, thank you. Knowing how tight safeguarding is around my area of work, and also how ofsted fail you on the smallest of errors, I'm absolutely astounded scenarios like that occur. But I'm suspecting ofsted have little on this.

It would be interesting to know if Ofsted had followed Stonewall guidance.
I have a memory of a Woman's Hour interview that said Stonewall had worked with CafCass.

It is something that Ofsted and Dept of Education should be investigating seriously.

Stonewall claim re its courses:

"Creating a trans-inclusive school
Secondary school courses

This course gives teachers the confidence to support a trans young person in school, including ideas for best practice in creating a trans-inclusive school in line with of the inspection frameworks in England, Scotland and Wales and the Equality Act 2010.

Course objectives
Develop the confidence, skills and knowledge to train their colleagues on tackling transphobic bullying and creating a trans-inclusive school
Gain an overview of the current experiences of young trans people in school and their impact on pupil achievement and school performance
Find out how to meet your legal requirements under the Equality Act 2010 and the inspection framework in your country"

www.stonewall.org.uk/creating-trans-inclusive-school-0

Its important to be aware that Stonewall has specifically lobbied to remove single sex based exemptions from the Equality Act 2010.

Woman's Place UK article:

"Mixed sex toilets in schools
We have been contacted by parents whose children’s schools are introducing mixed sex (often described as ‘gender neutral’ toilets) often removing the girls’ facilities to do so. There have been several news stories reporting this trend including in Brighton, London and Warrington.

Terms
Despite its prevalence, the term ‘gender neutral’ is widely contested. In practice, the creation of ‘gender neutral’ provision often favours one set of people over another. For example, where toilets are converted to ‘gender neutral’ provision, it is often the women’s or girls’ toilets that are used. The term ‘gender neutral’ ignores the different needs of women and girls.

We prefer to use the term ‘mixed-sex’ as this better represents the reality of the situation.

Toilet provision which is a single cubicle with inclusive sink, dryer, sanitary bin and a floor to ceiling door could more properly be called ‘gender neutral’ but we prefer the term unisex or single occupancy.

The responsibility of schools in England
Schools must provide separate sex provision for children over 8 as outlined in the Schools Premises Regulations (2012). The guidance is quite clear on this.

In June 2018, the Department of Education reissued guidance from the Department of Education on the responsibilities of school in relation to ‘gender separation’.

Paragraph 13 clearly states:

“It is permissible for toilet and boarding accommodation facilities to be separate as they are captured under existing statutory exceptions. Separate toilet and washing facilities must be provided for boys and girls aged 8 years and over pursuant to Regulation 4 of the School Premises (England) Regulations 2012, which falls within the exemption provided for in Schedule 22 of the Equality Act 2010.” (continues)

embedded link to 2018 Govt updated guidance:
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/719398/Gender-separation-guidance.pdf?fbclid=IwAR39IL5UlLxmNI2v1s9l8FaljK4QFSQy9AdzBBqozW4UrHycESrfSWtd5rc

womansplaceuk.org/mixed-sex-toilets-ins-chools/

The responsibility of schools in England
Schools must provide separate sex provision for children over 8 as outlined in the Schools Premises Regulations (2012). The guidance is quite clear on this.

Yes this is my experience in practise which is why I do not fathom any of this. From this age, changing for PE and swimming is separate.

Thank you for the links and info; I'm compiling my own notes.

Why the hell is that non statutory?

(I missed that document, baby was tiny then and I was in a haze.)

This guidance does not obviate the need for schools to satisfy themselves in their individual circumstances that they are complying with the law and, consequently, they may wish to take their own legal advice.

Ok so the law is the law. At the moment.