Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Ruth Hunt is leaving Stonewall

411 replies

Whatisthisfuckery · 21/02/2019 16:21

Just seen this on Twitter.

twitter.com/ruth_hunt/status/1098604129394585601?s=21

I’d like to think her successor will be less homophobic. We shall see, although I’m not holding out much hope.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
25
EmpressAdultHumanFemale · 26/02/2019 06:14

But I also wonder, with all this focus on Stonewall, are other organisations such as Pride any better?

Not in the slightest. But at least they’re not providing training into schools & workplaces.

TimeLady · 26/02/2019 07:50

Stonewall CEO dismisses ‘conspiracy theories’ about her departure

www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/02/24/stonewall-ceo-ruth-hunt-departure/

MsJeminaPuddleduck · 26/02/2019 08:18

Cos nothing dismisses conspiracy rumours more than putting out a 'press release' to deny them.

FeedMeBooks · 26/02/2019 08:31

Charity or out and out lobbying organisation? The brazen arrogance of this

We will educate and upskill the new Government to understand why trans equality is vital, and we will put in place the right mechanisms to reform the Gender Recognition Act.

From the Trustees annual report 2016.

FeedMeBooks · 26/02/2019 09:08

£5 million in 'fees' just seems like a huge amount of money.

The programme’s 800 members in the UK and 150 members around the world, come from all sectors, including banks, law firms, local authorities, NHS Trusts and the armed forces.

Looks like it's £2,500 per organisation to be a diversity champion in the UK (from another website as on Stonewall no obvious pricing info?).

What leaps out is how much the tax payer is contributing to funds. Because if a local authority, NHS trust, police force, school, university, armed forces etc are paying we all know where that money actually comes from. How many of the 800 are public sector? There are are more NHS trusts than banks out there.

Add to that £655k of £872k grant income in 2017 came from UK govs/offices.

It's no wonder they are desperate to have friends in Westminster. Without them they're likely to go belly up.

EatCashews · 26/02/2019 09:15

Keep talking, women, and don't get distracted by Ruth Hunt because the real story is Stonewall itself.

The third sector does not seem to be a friend to women, from Save the Children to Amnesty to Stonewall.

And yes, Stonewall is desperate to have friends in high places. (But then many charities that went down were - see Kids Company and its links to David Cameron's circle.)

EatCashews · 26/02/2019 09:17

Organisational logic: this many NHS trusts & public sector orgs can net us this much money in fees, with the aim of signing up every single public sector org in the UK. Would love to see the business plan.

FeedMeBooks · 26/02/2019 09:34

^^ EatCashews hits nail on head IMO. Once you've got a public sector organisation signed up they'll renew and renew because who's brave enough to say we'll ditch our diversity & inclusion badge? Much less fickle and hard work than chasing individual donors.

RedToothBrush · 26/02/2019 09:41

It was mentioned in that article a while ago detailing how disaffected grassroots groups were with Stonewall.

How long before a split and another grouping comes together?

Lumene · 26/02/2019 10:34

We will educate and upskill the new Government to understand why trans equality is vital, and we will put in place the right mechanisms to reform the Gender Recognition Act.

This is an organisation directly setting out to lobby the government and others to remove female rights.

It should not be receiving govt or public sector money.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 26/02/2019 10:39

It’s not ‘vital’. How can such a minority have such power? Why not the physically disabled, the blind, the deaf, people with ‘everyday’ mental issues (ie depression). Why are these men so bloody influential?

Equality for all yes - but why moreso for men?

R0wantrees · 26/02/2019 10:40

Keep talking, women, and don't get distracted by Ruth Hunt because the real story is Stonewall itself

The third sector does not seem to be a friend to women, from Save the Children to Amnesty to Stonewall.

The abuses of power within third sector organisations are driven by men's sexual rights movement and especially impact children and women.

Guardian 6/2/19
'Amnesty International has toxic working culture, report finds
Bullying, public humiliation and discrimination threaten rights group’s credibility'
www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/06/amnesty-international-has-toxic-working-culture-report-finds

Guardian 22/10/15
'Why is a pimp helping to shape Amnesty’s sex trade policy?
by Kat Banyard
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/22/pimp-amnesty-prostitution-policy-sex-trade-decriminalise-brothel-keepers

Guardian 9/10/18
'One in four Save the Children staff 'suffer discrimination or harassment'
Employees reported being ignored, humiliated or ridiculed, in a review commissioned by the charity in the wake of sexual harassment scandals'
www.theguardian.com/global-development/2018/oct/09/one-in-four-save-the-children-staff-suffer-discrimination-or-harassment-review-finds

Guardian 26/5/18
'Save the Children suspends UK funding bids over abuse scandal
Charity chief says it will not seek government funds until it meets expected standards'
www.theguardian.com/society/2018/apr/26/scandal-hit-save-the-children-cut-off-from-uk-government-funding

31/7/18CNN
'Sexual abuse 'endemic' in international aid sector, damning report finds'
edition.cnn.com/2018/07/30/uk/sexual-abuse-aid-sector-uk-report-intl/index.html

31 July 2018
International Development Committee

'Sexual exploitation and abuse in the aid sector inquiry'
Key points
Sexual exploitation and abuse is across all organisations, countries and institutions
Collective failure of leadership and engagement from top levels down over many years
Self-delusion of aid sector in dealing with and tackling problems
Failing to put victims at the heart of solutions could be harmful; certainly renders reforms ineffective
www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/international-development-committee/inquiries/parliament-2017/sexual-exploitation-in-aid-sector/

There are systemic Safeguarding and Child Protection failures within charities which have become corporate bodies.

WeRiseUp · 26/02/2019 10:41

Thanks R0

R0wantrees · 26/02/2019 10:43

Why are these men so bloody influential?

For all the reasons previous groups of men who yield disproportionate power have been.

Popchyk · 26/02/2019 10:44

"How long before a split and another grouping comes together?"

Continuity Stonewall just for the LGB? Sounds like a landscaping business.

And the Stonewall left behind that focuses solely on trans issues?

Transwall? Wonderwall? Stonecutters for the transsexual wing?

I am liking a merger of GLAAD and Stonewall to give GLAADstone. They could do a line of handbag merchandising.

R0wantrees · 26/02/2019 10:52

Jess Bradley's contribution to the book, 'To My Trans Sisters'
edited by Charlie Craggs (publ Oct 2017)

"The first time I changed the world was when I told my mates to call me she rather than he. I literally constructed a new world where its possible to understand myself as a genderqueer woman, despite being asigned male at birth simply by changing the language to describe myself. This is why language and pronouns are so important. Its about creating a world in which trans people are allowed to exist"

"And I can honestly say that the work that trans people do for each other means that, for me at least, the trans community is a beautiful place to be. Despite our differences, we have each others' backs"

the book is described:
"Dedicated to trans women everywhere, this inspirational collection of letters written by successful trans women shares the lessons they learnt on their journeys to womanhood, celebrating their achievements and empowering the next generation to become who they truly are.

Written by politicians, scientists, models, athletes, authors, actors, and activists from around the world, these letters capture the diversity of the trans experience and offer advice from make-up and dating through to fighting dysphoria and transphobia.

By turns honest and heartfelt, funny and furious or beautiful and brave, these letters send a clear message of hope to their sisters: each of these women have gone through the struggles of transition and emerged the other side as accomplished, confident women; and if we made it sister, so can you!"

source:
books.google.co.uk/books?id=gNspDwAAQBAJ

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 26/02/2019 12:01

The first time I changed the world was...

When I discovered cheese on toast with red onions
When I discovered sloe gin
When I first tasted red pesto as opposed the green
When I realised that I was rather good at art...

Needmoresleep · 26/02/2019 12:02

My theory is:

Pre 2015 Stonewall was a respected organisation with a mission to continue to promote social acceptance of LGBs, often via training and help drafting policies. There was a revolving door for senior staff between the organisation and its clients. The approach was soft and safe, indeed on the question of gay marriage, very safe. However also effective, with lots of evidence pointing to the younger generation being more accepting of homosexuality than their parents. However there was still sensitive and careful work to be done, not least with socially conservative communities for whom understanding and acceptance of British norms is a key part to their own integration and equality. .

At the same time the Ts were lobbying to be brought into the umbrella. My best guess is that the decision was made before appointing Hunt, and adding the T was the first question at interview and the first task on appointment.

Why? At that time there was an awful lot of Kool Aid floating around, particularly from the US: Caitlyn Jenner etc. Even those who had their doubts may have worried that they were simply repeating societal concerns about gays of a couple decades before. Acceptance without exception sounded right.

What went wrong?

Stonewall, structurally, was ill equipped to consider new, and controversial policy issues. In 2015 it was what it was, and did what it did, with little transparency or controversy. My guess is that neither Hunt nor the Chair really understood the implications of adding a campaign that did not have wider public acceptance and which created conflict with other groups in society. Neither had the background, skills or experience to negotiate treacherous waters whilst keeping their core supporters on board.

The next error perhaps was their trans-advisory committee. It is hard to work out how this group fits into the Stonewall decision making, but they might have been better off including some people who appreciated the concerns of other groups in society and the need for negotiation. And the CE/Board should have been able to provide further Governance/brakes/dilution to ensure they were not moving too fast for Stonewall members, clients or society. Having a young and inexperienced Aimee Challenor on the Committee was poor. Having anonymous members is shocking.

Then there were the tactics. No one but no one should be demanding "concessions" (including safeguarding protections) from other groups using a shouty #nodebate approach. If societal change is needed, debate it, and provide your justification. And listen to the concerns of others and work out appropriate safeguards.

The inevitable push back has started to take place. Respected gays, like Jonny Best and lesbians are speaking up. Respected journalists like Janice Turner and James Kirkup are speaking up. Respected donors are speaking up. Respected medics, scientists and academics are speaking up. There have been some good, questioning, programmes on TV and radio. And ordinary people on Twitter, Fb, or Mumsnet.

Stonewall has remained, well a stonewall. However I am sure the pushback has started to affect their client base. More employees are now prepared to write to their personnel department, attaching an article from the Sunday Times and questioning whether Mermaids/Stonewall etc training is suitable. At minimum some will be asking why all the emphasis on the T, when managers really want to know how best to support the, say, sheltered but bright Bangladeshi girl in their team, or the person with disabilities. Teachers and GPs too. I also have no doubt that the pre-GRA advert linking to the Stonewall guidance, and using the logos of 40 firms, did real harm.

So did Hunt walk, or was she pushed? It really does not matter. She did not understand the task and did not have the skills, so failed.

What does Stonewall do next? If they are sensible they hire a savvy politician. A Mandelson type, who can understand the task, sort out sensible targets and rein in the less-compromising TRAs. They slow down, rebuild the respectability of both Stonewall and the transgender movement. (Note very few people had issues with the GRA and those with certificates, and the prevailing view is one of sympathy.)

They acknowledge the big concerns: medicating children and the unwell; sport; and safeguarding, and offer compromises. They seek smaller and sensible reforms to the GRA, not Self-ID for the full umbrella, review the guidance they provide to people like schools and the police, distance themselves from the more fetishistic elements, and start encouraging debate.

Will they? No. I don't think they can. I don't know who was pulling the Stonewall strings but suspect it was neither Hunt nor Gooding. Both were simply there as beards, to be pushed when no longer useful. .

R0wantrees · 26/02/2019 12:09

What does Stonewall do next? If they are sensible they hire a savvy politician. A Mandelson type, who can understand the task, sort out sensible targets and rein in the less-compromising TRAs. They slow down, rebuild the respectability of both Stonewall and the transgender movement. (Note very few people had issues with the GRA and those with certificates, and the prevailing view is one of sympathy.)

What Stonewall has done is too serious for simply re-branding. There is a need for thorough investigation not least because of both the pulic money and the significant political influence.
Stonewall's actions have had significant Safeguarding implications for children and vulnerable adults.
How Stonewall were co-opted needs to be understood.

Needmoresleep · 26/02/2019 12:18

That wont happen. There are too many people and organisations who would end up with egg on their faces

The temptation will to be to keep on digging. As clients catch on to the problem, they will limit their exposure as fast as they can.

If Stonewall is to retain any credibility they need someone who sees the bigger picture and who can put their current approachinto rapid stall or reverse.

And how did they get into this mess. I could suggest some names. But the post would then be deleted.

EatCashews · 26/02/2019 12:28

Thank you, FeedMe, R0 and everyone else on this thread.

I want a good, investigative piece on misogyny and the third sector in contemporary Britain. Any journalists, please?

R0wantrees · 26/02/2019 12:30

That wont happen. There are too many people and organisations who would end up with egg on their faces

There is a historic sexual abuse investigation going on. Many established groups and prominant individuals are facing up to errors of judgement.

It will of course be resisted but the extent of the consequences of Stonewall's actions will require a thorough enquiry.

thatdamnwoman · 26/02/2019 12:31

I'm a lesbian and was involved with Stonewall back in the 90s and noughties. There were members of the T and Q community on Stonewall committees in the late noughties. I know two lesbians who fell foul of Stonewall back then for questioning the presence of one mtf individual and one man who defined himself as queer but seemed to have a long-term girlfriend on a regional committee. Stonewall was officially just LGB at that time. I saw what happened to the women who questioned this and realised that despite the fact that lesbians dominated the local Stonewall conference and turned out in numbers to any events, we had very little say or respect within the organisation.

I agree that under Ben Summerskill Stonewall had a slow and gentle policy. I wrote a critical article in a lesbian publication about how civil partnerships were a form of apartheid and not good enough when they were first introduced. Ben phoned me and explained that this was just an interim step: the best they could push for now, but marriage would come. I was impressed by him.

Where can we turn to for legal advice on whether Stonewall still counts as a charity? It seems to offer nothing tangible to the LGB community in my region and it now seems to be a trading organisation, selling its training and branding. A legal challenge might wipe it out (she says hopefully).

EatCashews · 26/02/2019 12:39

Charity Commission, I would think?

Needmoresleep · 26/02/2019 12:41

Yes. But how long did that take.

My dad was a senior Met police officer in the 70s and 80s. I though he was a complete fuddy duddy because he would sound off against Radio 1 DJs. And warn me not to stand close to the edge on tube platforms. (It was later revealed that thete was a "pusher") He also sounded off because he was not allowed to investigate some serious child abuse he stumbled across in a North London childrens home.

Yes Stonewall/Mermaids deserve thorough scrutiny. But I suspect we may have to wait till there are sufficient detransitioners. In short as long as we waited for Saville (and note the BBCs reluctance to broadcast) and Rotherham.

The next CE needs to understand and have the strength to put the currect approach into reverse gear.